Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S
Ok, then why even waste the time to argue with byHismercy if you're in agreement on that point? Whatever happened to chivaly?
|
To make clear, I was not arguing about whether Satan was Lucifer or not. I was making the point that just as the Bible does not say explicitly "sin is Satan in the flesh", neither does it say "Satan is Lucifer". Both ideas are only
implied from various verses throughout the Bible, but both ideas mostly come from church history.The idea of sin is Satan in the flesh comes from the early church. So does the idea of Lucifer being Satan.
Satan in general is a tricky thing to discuss from the old testament Bible because the Jews don't believe in Satan the same as the Christians. They believe that Satan is more of a servant of God doing His will, and the Hebrew bible reflects that. For example, in Job, God and Satan get together in heaven to have a chat about what to do with Job. This presents Satan more as a servant of God used to test Job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S
BTW, I don't understand how you get to any other result other that Lucifer = Satan by looking at scripture. I mean, if you say you can't use the bible alone what else do you personally use to reach that conclusion? And what references have scholars used if not the bible alone to pretty much unanimously agree on these being the same person?
|
The word Lucifer appears only once in the whole bible in Isaiah 14:12.
Isaiah 14:4 shows who the name Lucifer is talking about
:
"you will take up this taunt against the
king of Babylon: ..."
Scholars do not unanimously agree. This apologetics site explains why Satan is not Lucifer.
http://ap.lanexdev.com/APContent.asp...1&article=1091
Nowhere within the context of Isaiah 14, however, is Satan depicted as Lucifer. In fact, quite the opposite is true. In his commentary on Isaiah, Burton Coffman wrote: “We are glad that our version (ASV) leaves the word Lucifer out of this rendition, because...Satan does not enter into this passage as a subject at all” (1990, p. 141). The Babylonian ruler was to die and be buried—fates neither of which Satan is destined to endure. The king was called “a man” whose body was to be eaten by worms, but Satan, as a spirit, has no physical body. The monarch lived in and abided over a “golden city” (vs. 4), but Satan is the monarch of a kingdom of spiritual darkness (cf. Ephesians 6:12). And so on.
It is interesting that this disagreement over whether Lucifer is Satan or not has even influenced the bible translations.
As mentioned in the quote by Burton Coffman above, the ASV removed the reference to Lucifer which was in the KJV and others:
http://biblehub.com/isaiah/14-12.htm
American Standard Version
How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!
King James 2000 Bible
How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how are you cut down to the ground, who did weaken the nations!