Quote:
Originally Posted by aron
I understand the popular vote is with Mr. Mephibosheth on this. Again, that's why I put it out on "alternative views". Without this format I wouldn't have bothered, to phrase Mr. Angus Kinnear, going "against the tide".
John's style, if you will, included copy Jesus' style, with a public, exoteric teaching, and a private, esoteric teaching. Jesus would speak in public, and say, "He who has an ear to hear, let him hear"... then privately Jesus would explain the parable to his closest disciples. Are you still with me here?
Okay, guess what John does in the Revelation, after each epistle to the seven Asian churches? He writes, "He who has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is speaking to the churches". Sound familiar? (Which Spirit, evidently was an angel, at least if you look at the beginning of each epistle) ["To the angel of the church in Sardis..."]) So there is a mirror here, of the exoteric pronouncement, and esoteric to follow. But obviously there is no "code book" where we have the esoteric explanation of Revelation. Did John, orally, explain everything to his disciples? Some Fathers said yes, but we don't know.
Anyway, if you don't have an "ear to hear" what I have an ear to hear, that is okay. Neither is right or wrong here. It is a picture, a parable, and we have our subjective responses. I have mine and you have yours. Style is a subjective assessment. I have my assessment and I've shared it.
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We are first introduced to the Lord Jesus, or the Son of man, in Revelation with a very vivid and colorful description. He cannot be mistaken for somebody else or misidentified.
Revelation 1: 13- 19
[He was] "clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars; and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter..."
He instructs John to write to the seven angels of the seven churches:
Revelation 2: 1-7
"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write: These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks...
...I know thy works...et cetera, et cetera...
...He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches..."
Now, unless Aron has another Bible of his own edition that he reads out of, it is quite clear that not only are the 'saith he' and the 'Spirit saith' one and the same (even according to Aron's own rubric of interpretation), but he that 'saith' in the first instance is Jesus (as unmistakably described) and is also the Spirit that 'saith' at the end of the message to the church in Ephesus.
Let's move on...
Revelation 2: 8-11
"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These things saith the first and the last, which was dead and is alive...
...I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty...et cetera, et cetera...
...He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches..."
Now, unless my Bible has some horrible typing error, how can I possibly infer that an angel said the things that were said to this church. Clearly he who said those things was Jesus (as he himself described himself in the first chapter), and he is also synonymous with the Spirit (as Aron has already agreed). No angel said these things.
Let's have one more last go at this...
Revelation 2:18-29
"And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These things saith the Son of God, who hath eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass...
...I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience...et cetera, et cetera...
...He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches..."
Now here John makes it appallingly clear (appalling for Aron), that in case he missed the vivid description of the Son of man in the first chapter (which Aron's Bible seems to be missing), well 'let me put it bluntly', John seems to be saying, that 'he who is saying these things' is the Son of God and not an angel, or the seven angels, or some such...could he have been any clearer?
And so, I must ask my dear brother Aron, where has he got these notions of which he is so eloquent and robust in his defence of them? Alas, they have no foundation in any Bible that I know of. How has Aron not 'wrenched' and 'twisted' the plain meaning of the Bible for use to his own nefarious ends? He has, in effect, added to the words of the prophecy of this book (Rev 22: 18-19). And I think we all know what John has guaranteed will happen to those who fall into this kind of error. I do not know whether cowering behind the euphemism of 'alternative view' will be any more of a defence in that day than a Sodomite's declaration of his own innocence will be when he claims that his was only an 'alternative lifestlye'...
Good day to you all.