[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Again, you are equating a healing to a Christian's salvation by receiving of the Holy Spirit. Her action of touching him did not result in her spiritual salvation at that moment because the spirit had not yet been given. You cannot compare the two things.

OK so a better verse relating to salvation is:

Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Two conditions for salvation:
1) confession - that's a work
2) belief in the heart, that without 1) is only dead faith


Faith Without Works Is Dead - What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2:14-26

It doesn't matter if the faith is for healing, salvation, or walking on water. It's just faith, and without some sort of corresponding expression, it's dead.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Also look at the rest of Paul's quote from Philippians. He says, "not having my own righteousness from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith"

No works are mentioned in gaining Christ here.

In Hebrews 11, Paul relates faith and works in the life of Abraham and others. It says by faith, Abraham offered Isaac. This is what faith is. Faith is belief with some sort of expression.

Even Luther and Calvin known for "saved by faith alone" did not believe in dead faith.

“We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.” ~ Martin Luther.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Paul could have meant gaining Christ as in seeing him again in Heaven and not as in an mystical fleeting experiential way of gaining Christ when one would have to do something like chant the Lord's name 5 times every Sunday in order to "gain" him. This is a different gospel.

If it is as you say that Paul means a future thing in heaven, then it means salvation (i.e. forgiveness of sins) is a future, not present, reality.

The idea of "gaining Christ " is very much related to being "found in Him", and knowing God and being known by Him in Galatians 4:8 and Galatians 4:9. Verse 8 says "you did not know God" and verse 9 says "now that you know God". So clearly it is a present tense idea.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Friendships can be one-sided. Jesus' friendship to Judas was based on love and trust. Judas' viewed the friendship opportunistically for his own selfish gain. Both are in a relationship with each other but with different motives.

The question is can you truly love someone while not trusting them simultaneously?

You don't have to be for someone to turn against them. You can be agnostic and latter decide to turn against them.

What you say is possible however it is mostly your speculation, and my view is based on the Scripture Psalm 41:9 and the fact that the Psalm was fulfilled.

This psalm describes a close friend turning away or betraying David. It related to Ahithophel, an esteemed and cherished friend and trusted advisor of David (2 Sam. 16:23), who had a relationship with David similar to David's relationship with Jonathan. Ahithophel conspired with Absalom against David and took a leading role in the revolt of David's son Absalom. Ahithophel did this to David out of revenge for what David did to Bathsheba (Bathsheba was a relative). It is reasonable to assume that up until the time David sinned with Bathsheba, Ahithophel was a loyal and loving friend rather than someone who never loved him.

Now we can see why Jesus and Judas fulfilled this Psalm. Because Judas was an esteemed and cherished friend of Christ. Christ would not have entrusted him with the responsibility of holding the money if he wasn't.