[hosepipe]

Originally Posted by OBW

Not sure the theology in this is sound.

Are churches the sheep pens? Was Jesus referring to churches?

I don't think so. That is one of Lee's constructs. Problem is that he was trying to put it onto other churches and exclude his own. Doesn't work.

But he was wrong anyway. I believe that the reference to the sheep pens was to the system(s) in which the people (the Jews) were kept in anticipation of the coming of the Messiah. The adherence to the law. The system of sacrifices. Jesus freed us from the old ways.

But the church was/is the new way. It was/is the pasture.

And this comment about sheep feeding themselves is not very meaningful. Yes, sheep always eat with their own mouth. But they need to be shepherded to where there is food. And they need to be shepherded out of danger, etc. Sheep will stay in one place until they have grazed the grass to the roots. Much harder to get the grass to spring back. They need the shepherd to move them along at least a little bit before that so that the grass comes back stronger and sooner.

This "we can do it ourselves" mentality is mostly American social theology and not Bible. We are ignoring the record. We are helped to find food and water, but no one makes us eat or drink.

The pasture is not mentioned in the metaphor but its "implied".. and certain operators within the metaphor are ignored by your post.. especially Jesus calling them out of the sheep pen.. The sheep pen is not "the World" as they are "sheep".. The hireling seems to be the pastor in the sheep pen.. Much in this metaphor seems, to me, to be overlooked by the orthodox view of it..

The local church by my experience is indeed a sheep pen.. and Witless by his example and actions may have not been a christian.. But Jesus did not forbid denomination expressly.. The Body of Christ metaphor unified "the spirit" spiritually but not locally.. These two metaphors feed on each other I think..

A conversation on all of this may be beneficial.. If the word church is scewed then other concepts can be morphed and twisted as well..