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Old 12-18-2012, 08:49 PM   #21
VoiceInWilderness
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Default Re: Do Most Unbelievers Go to Hell for Eternity?

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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Who said that false teachers are going to hell? I don't think you've heard that from me or anyone else on this forum. Some false teachers will go to hell because they never believed on the Lord Jesus in the first place. Some will no doubt "suffer loss; but ..will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor 3:15)
I had quoted ZNP, who, I think, was questioning if 2 Peter 2:21-22 means that these false teachers were going to hell. This is my 2nd question regarding if every believer will be in the New Jerusalem. I would like to discuss that later because there is a lot to fellowship about my question #1.

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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Nothing in Revelation 14 makes or breaks your case, so I'm not sure why you are bringing it up.
Rev 14:11 proves that some people do go to hell for eternity. I mentioned it because I wanted to make it clear that I am not a universalist, who says that no one goes to hell for eternity. I think most unbelievers do not go to hell for eternity, but some do.

Universalists use the fact that the Gk ionian, like the Hebrew leOlam, do not necessarily mean "forever", but may just mean "to the age". To unabiguously mean forever, the Bible says "forever and ever" which is what Rev 14:11 says. Besides that, the verses about Judas' judgment require that Judas would never be reconciled to God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Most evangelicals say what? I have never heard any Christian teacher or minister say any such thing. Again the verses you have provided do not make your case, and they certainly do not say that hell is an exceptional punishment for extreme sinners.
The 2 verses about Judas, Mat 26:24 & Mk 14:21, say that Judas' punishment is so incredibly terrible that it would have been better for him if he had never been born! Judas, I think, was one of the worst sinners ever. Most Evangelicals say that every unbeliever will suffer eternal torment in hell. If an unbeliever will suffer torment forever and ever, then would it not have been much better for every unbeliever if he had never been born? Unbelievers are the majority of the human race. So that's why I say that Evangelicals say the the majority of the human race would have been better off not to be born. This at odds with Mat 26:24 & Mk 14:21 because Judas' punishment is clearly exceptional.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Yes Israel is analogous to the church, but I don't think that the nations (in the O.T.) are analogous to unbelievers (in this age). Israel was a people chosen and called out by God (as we Christians are), but the nations in the Old Testament were held under God's continual judgment (with a few exceptions) and were not provided any chance of redemption, whereas the unbelievers in this age have been given the opportunity to come out from underneath God's judgment.

No Old Testament-believing Jew would agree with you about the predicament of the nations in the Old Testament. The Jews have always said that the righteous of all nations will inherit the earth. This is not a verse in the Old Testament, but it is clear in the OT, that in the next age, the nations are there as well as Israel. Their portion is not nearly as close to God as the Jews. They would be judged by their works. There is no hint in the OT that all the nations go to hell for eternity. In the NT, a gentile can become part of Israel. In the OT, it was very rare for a gentile to become part of Israel. I don't think this is a strong argument on my part because it is general. I prefer to stand on specific verses like the ones about Judas. There are others, but I'll bring them up later.
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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
(I do understand that part of your contention is that some have not been given that opportunity, and we can certainly discuss that on this thread).

This is a big point, and I haven't paid that much attention to it. I've understood that those who never heard the gospel would be judged according to their works. If they never heard the gospel, that is taken into account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
The situation with how God's people who lived under that law will be judged is an area of debate and even sharp disagreement among Christians. I have not studied it enough to make an intelligent argument either way. I wish the apostle Paul were here to expound upon what he told the Romans: For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; (Rom 2:12) It seems cut and dry, but there are other portions of scripture that seem to make it a little more complicated than this verse seems to indicate.

I agree, and I have not studied it much either. I'd rather not get into that at 1st because it's a detour from my 2 questions.
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For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and His ears are open to their cry. - 1 Pet 3:12
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