[Jesus4Me]

Originally Posted by aron

The LC is a Pentacostal/Charismatic group: they shout themselves into a state which they call "being in spirit", a la Revelation 1:10. "Cry out and shout, O inhabitant of Zion", we were told. So you'd shout yourself into such a state of excitement that they could tell you that the sky was green, and you'd shout it back.

Discernment was weakened and all sorts of stuff came in. Don't question, we were told. Just be "one".

Thanks for the info. Lord willing, I shall find out more about the LC movement as time goes on.

If you notice that the Roman Centurion told Jesus, "I also am a man under authority, with servants under me..." Jesus didn't say, "No, man! The Holy Spirit is the Third of the Trinity, co-equal with the Father and the Son!" When the Roman Centurion said "under" he meant "under". Jesus was "one" with the Father just as the Roman Centurion was "one" with Caesar. When you saw the Centurion, you saw Caesar, and when the Centurion told his servants, "Go", and "Come", and "Do this", it was Caesar speaking through him. So the servants obeyed the Centurion, who was under Caesar. Similarly, Jesus could just speak a word and the Centurion's servant would be healed.

Jesus didn't say, "No, man! You have the doctrine of the Trinity all wrong!" He just marveled, and said, "Amen. Let it be done", and walked away.

My sense is that we don't care for stuff like this, today, because we have our pet doctrines. We cling to the doctrine and ignore what the Word is saying.

Well, one can ignore what the word is saying by misapplication of the verses to support a pet doctrines so how can one discern this? With His help. That means being opened to correction when one is reading inbetween the lines of what is plainly being written.

The Roman Centurion was referring to Jesus's authority as God; and how things will obey because He is God. The Roman Centurion was referring to the word spoken by Jesus as divine authority as making it happen just as the Roman Centurion's word make it happen by the servants beneathe him. The Romans Centurion did not mention any servant for Jesus to command and so that is why he did not mean it in the way you seem to be applying it as meaning when he was using his servants as to how his word is accomplished in the human way because all Jesus had to do was give the word because He is God.

Why did Moses see an angel in the thorn bush, but also see God (Exod 3:4; cf Acts 7:30)?

That is a good question; but have you ever noticed how angels are referenced sometimes as angels and then the "angel of the Lord" is referenced in that incident as is in Exodus 3:2 before saying it is the Lord in Exodus 3:4? I am close to understanding it with His help, but the incident you had cited was not just an angel. This is one of the many visitations of the pre-incarnate appearance of the Son of God; the divine Word. Even Exodus 3:6 shows Moses being afraid to look upon God.

Why did Hagar tell the angel, "You are the God who hears me"(Genesis 16:13)?

Another example of the angel of the Lord as referring to God.

Why did the angel tell John, "Don't worship me! I am your fellow servant. Worship God!"? I don't hear people talk about these things much, probably because we have our neat formulas. Never mess up a neat formula by reading the Word of God. Just ignore the word, what it is saying, and everything will remain neat, and clear and simple.

Well, the incident you cited, that was an actual angel whereas the incident below; that was God, if you note how He did not say do not do that.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

I admit that I fail to see why God would use that term angel of the Lord in those incidents when obviously it was about the Son of God. Maybe because He understands that readers will have a hard time coming to grip to the reality of the Triune God? He seems to admit this so.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And yet, in other places in the O.T. & the N.T., we see scripture testifying about Jesus as the God that men had seen in the O.T.

John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So Who was the God that men had seen in the O.T.?

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me....46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So even the Jews understood that Jesus was testifying that Moses was writing about Him as the God that men has seen.

Genesis 18:1And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

Genesis 26:1And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus 3:16Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:

Exodus 4:1And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The Lord hath not appeared unto thee.

So it is a pretty safe bet that Jesus is the God that men had seen in the O.T.

But what about this "Trinity" thing? I am not going to address the Trinity doctrine because people can redefine it, and we may not be on the same page in my sharing this with you. I may know what I am saying, but you might be thinking something else that I may not agree with if it was a part of the Trinity doctrine or a modified one. Best stick with the scripture.

One question we can address is how can God establish a word in testimony or even judge someone if He is just a One Person God when His word requires for man that there is to be another two or three witnesses to do so as one witness can not ( Deuteronomy 17:6 & 19:15 ) & still not allowed to accomplish this ( Matthew 18:16 & 2 Corinthians 13:1 & 1 Timothy 5:19 ). Does this speak to the make up of our One God in having 3 Witnesses within?

Look at the plurality of the One God in verse 26 for requsting to make man in their image, and yet when creating man, God did so as in the singular.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So there were 3 Divine Witnesses within the One God to establish a word in creation of man. So that is how in according to His word for man in establishing a word, this speaks to how God established a word in creation.

The same goes for God judging a people or any one.

Genesis 11:5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

So here, the Lord spoke of delivering a judgment that refers to Himself in the plural sense and then when performing that judgment, it was in the singular sense.

So what's going on?

At this link is to Strong's Concordance to the King James Bible of Genesis 1st chapter.

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B01C001.htm

Click on "God" on that first verse to see the Hebrew text it was translated from.

'elohiym =
plural of ''elowahh' (433); gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

Even Jesus testified to the plurality of God in testifying how God is with us now as saved believers.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.....26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

By His own words, Jesus cannot testify of Himself as God, and so two more Witnesses was required.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This was necessary as Jesus testified to fulfill all righteousness; this prophesy in Isaiah.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

God is speaking here and yet the Lord God & His Spirit sent Him? This is how we are to lean on Him for wisdom and discernment because He can lead us to the answers we seek in the scripture as kept in the KJV as God provided a way back to Himself thru Himself; back to the Father through His Son as the Holy Ghost is also a Witness that we are saved and thus His.

Acts 5:32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us:

Ephesians 4:30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

See how 1 John 5:7 is actually the original scripture at this link to this thread in this forum.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...3804#post43804

May God cause the increase in the knowledge of Him.