Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical
2 or 3 can do all those things but to be a biblical church they need a lampstand and they need to have the Lord's Table and baptize and plurality of (male) elders.
According to these biblical qualifiers of what is a church, 2 or 3 sisters having a prayer time together in a park does not qualify. I am not really stating a Lee or Nee doctrine here, that is what I believed and what many others believed when I was in denominations. Everyone knows that the idea of "2 or 3 plus Jesus is a church" is wrong. That is a lie based upon out of context interpretation of Jesus's words, when he was speaking about church discipline. He said tell the problem to your brother, if he won't listen, tell it to 2 or 3, and then if still no good, tell it to the church. So the church cannot be just the two or three, otherwise there is contradiction between Matthew 18:16 and 17.
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So let me understand, in the New Testament we have Jesus Christ, we have believers who have received Jesus Christ, we have a promise that 2 or 3 meeting in the name of Jesus will have Jesus in their midst, and we have the church, another entity.
The church as an entity is not just the gathering of the called out ones, but also must have the Lord's table, a Lampstand, and at least 2 male elders, ordained by an apostle. Is this how you define a church?
The elders therefore among you I exhort, who am a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Tend the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not of constraint, but willingly, according to the will of God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as lording it over the charge allotted to you, but making yourselves ensamples to the flock. (1Pet 5:1)
Peter was an elder. Who ordained him?
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues. (1Cor 12:28)
Why only elders? Why not apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, gifts of healing, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues? Isn't this also part of the apostles fellowship on this matter?
Rev 2:1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:".
You referred to the Lampstands in Revelation, each one has an angel. Why isn't this a requirement?
It seems to me that if having an angel is a requirement, and based on your other requirements I see no reason why this wouldn't also be one. So, if having an angel is a requirement when does this take place? Do they first have a lamp stand before they get an angel or do they get the angel first, or do they get both an angel and lamp stand at the same time?
But regardless of which it is, what is the prerequisite? What do you need before you get the angel? What do you need before you get the lamp stand? Do you need two elders first before you get an angel, and only then do you get the lamp stand?
Also, what about 1Cor -- God hath set some in the church -- apostles, prophets, teachers, etc. If you don't have all of these gifts then are you really a church? If not then not having miracles or gifts of healing would prove that you really aren't a church. On the other hand if not having miracles doesn't mean you aren't a church, then why is that less important than elders?