Local Church Discussions - View Single Post

JJ · 12-23-2017, 04:26 PM

This is the last discussion for those already familiar with “The Lords Recovery” and Witness Lee’s (and “the Blended Brothers”) preaching and teaching that todays’ Christian equivalent of the Jews’ “Jerusalem”, and of “Mount Zion with the Temple of God” in particular, the God-ordained place that Christians should gather and worship God, and Lee’s view that it is in “the local churches”. This is Part 5 because to keep it shorter, I referenced each New Testament reference for an equivalent of Jerusalem for Christians one verse at a time. In this case however, we have two chapters, Revelation 21-22 to consider: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...1&version=NASB. So it took a long time to compose. And, sorry, it is a very long post.

Now, since the New Jerusalem hasn’t yet been manifested, considering verses about it may be off topic for today’s Jerusalem for Christians. But, Witness Lee repeatedly said “we are building the New Jerusalem today”. And, it is great and marvelous reading, full of wondrous promises! So let’s at least read and marvel at how everything ends for believers.
I made the following list of the New Jerusalem’s features from the NASB version:

It comes after God has made a new heaven and new earth, old heaven and earth have passed away, and there is no sea.

The New Jerusalem:
• Is a holy city
• It comes down out of heaven from God
• It is adorned as a bride for her husband

A loud voice cries from the throne of God (regarding it) saying:
• The tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God himself will be among them.
• God will wipe away every tear from their (men’s) eyes
• And there will no longer be any death, mourning, crying, or pain (the first things have passed away).

The angel that had the last of the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues carried John away in spirit to a great and high mountain to see the bride, the wife of the lamb that comes down out of heaven from God. From there he could see the previously mentioned things about this Jerusalem plus that it:
• Has the glory of God
• Her brilliance is as a crystal clear stone, as a stone of crystal clear jasper
• It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel written on them
• Each wall on east, north, south, and west had three gates
• The city walls had twelve foundation stones, and on them names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb

The one who spoke with John had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall. From this John sees the city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width, fifteen hundred miles in length, width, and height.

He also sees that its’ wall is seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.
He also sees the material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. Furthermore:
• The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone: The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.

• And, the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
• John saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
• And, the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb

• The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

• In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed.
• And, they (nations) will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.

• Nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Then the one who spoke to John showed him:
• A river of water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

• There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

• And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

So, for our discussion then:
Can we use Revelation 21-22 to support Lee’s claims?
Can we use Revelation 21-22 to refute Lee’s claims?

My thoughts: There is no mention of local churches there, so no direct support. That by itself could be used to refute Lee’s claims.

But, Lee allegorized much from the New Jerusalem, and it was one of his favorite subjects to preach on. So, this deserves more consideration.

If Lee’s interpretations of The New Jerusalem were correct, the local churches would be building up something according to the signs, that:

• Is Heavenly
• Is Holy
• That Christ will marry
• Is full of God’s imperishable, unchanging, and enduring nature and purity (interpretation of gold).
• Is a place where nothing is hidden (interpretation of transparent).
• God himself dwells in and among His people there.
• God comforts weeping and mourning people there
• God removes death there
• Pain is removed there
• Is filled with the glory of God
• Has four very tall walls that protect its inhabitants on all sides
• Those walls are made of precious, costly stone with the appearance of God and with 12 names of Israel’s tribes on them (so God’s eternal covenant with Israel is fulfilled)
• Those walls are built on 12 different precious foundation stones, and each with a name of the 12 apostles (built on the living example and words of the transformed men chosen to initiate the spreading of the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ)
• Each wall faces a cardinal direction (for people to enter from wherever they come from) and has 3 single pearl gates for entry that are never shut (transformation by The Spirit gives continuous access to people)
• The street (path for fellowship) is transparent and of God’s divine nature.
• The Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple (place for people to commune with God and offer satisfying offerings to Him
• Only the glory of God provides its external light, with no natural light, and The Lamb (Jesus Christ the eternal resurrected redeeming sacrifice for men that overcomes their darkness) is the internal light
• Gentile nations walk by the light of this city and rulers of earth bring their glory into it, and the nations enter the gates that are never closed to bring their glory and honor into it
• Nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life
• There is a river of water of life clear as crystal, that comes from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street (the center of its fellowship is filled with life flowing out from God and Jesus’ throne).
• On either side of the river is the tree of life (Christ who hung from a tree to bear God’s wrath, was raised again, and gives life to all who receive him) bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit (satisfying life supply for our enjoyment) every month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations (Christ who heals the damaged world).
• There will no longer be any curse there; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
• And, there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

What do you say? Is this a good description of what is being built up in “The Lord’s Recovery”?

JJ

12-23-2017, 04:26 PM	#48
JJ Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 1,006	Re: Today's Jerusalem for Christians This is the last discussion for those already familiar with “The Lords Recovery” and Witness Lee’s (and “the Blended Brothers”) preaching and teaching that todays’ Christian equivalent of the Jews’ “Jerusalem”, and of “Mount Zion with the Temple of God” in particular, the God-ordained place that Christians should gather and worship God, and Lee’s view that it is in “the local churches”. This is Part 5 because to keep it shorter, I referenced each New Testament reference for an equivalent of Jerusalem for Christians one verse at a time. In this case however, we have two chapters, Revelation 21-22 to consider: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...1&version=NASB. So it took a long time to compose. And, sorry, it is a very long post. Now, since the New Jerusalem hasn’t yet been manifested, considering verses about it may be off topic for today’s Jerusalem for Christians. But, Witness Lee repeatedly said “we are building the New Jerusalem today”. And, it is great and marvelous reading, full of wondrous promises! So let’s at least read and marvel at how everything ends for believers. I made the following list of the New Jerusalem’s features from the NASB version: It comes after God has made a new heaven and new earth, old heaven and earth have passed away, and there is no sea. The New Jerusalem: • Is a holy city • It comes down out of heaven from God • It is adorned as a bride for her husband A loud voice cries from the throne of God (regarding it) saying: • The tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God himself will be among them. • God will wipe away every tear from their (men’s) eyes • And there will no longer be any death, mourning, crying, or pain (the first things have passed away). The angel that had the last of the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues carried John away in spirit to a great and high mountain to see the bride, the wife of the lamb that comes down out of heaven from God. From there he could see the previously mentioned things about this Jerusalem plus that it: • Has the glory of God • Her brilliance is as a crystal clear stone, as a stone of crystal clear jasper • It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel written on them • Each wall on east, north, south, and west had three gates • The city walls had twelve foundation stones, and on them names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb The one who spoke with John had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall. From this John sees the city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width, fifteen hundred miles in length, width, and height. He also sees that its’ wall is seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements. He also sees the material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. Furthermore: • The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone: The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. • And, the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. • John saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. • And, the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb • The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. • In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed. • And, they (nations) will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. • Nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. Then the one who spoke to John showed him: • A river of water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. • There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. • And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever. So, for our discussion then: Can we use Revelation 21-22 to support Lee’s claims? Can we use Revelation 21-22 to refute Lee’s claims? My thoughts: There is no mention of local churches there, so no direct support. That by itself could be used to refute Lee’s claims. But, Lee allegorized much from the New Jerusalem, and it was one of his favorite subjects to preach on. So, this deserves more consideration. If Lee’s interpretations of The New Jerusalem were correct, the local churches would be building up something according to the signs, that: • Is Heavenly • Is Holy • That Christ will marry • Is full of God’s imperishable, unchanging, and enduring nature and purity (interpretation of gold). • Is a place where nothing is hidden (interpretation of transparent). • God himself dwells in and among His people there. • God comforts weeping and mourning people there • God removes death there • Pain is removed there • Is filled with the glory of God • Has four very tall walls that protect its inhabitants on all sides • Those walls are made of precious, costly stone with the appearance of God and with 12 names of Israel’s tribes on them (so God’s eternal covenant with Israel is fulfilled) • Those walls are built on 12 different precious foundation stones, and each with a name of the 12 apostles (built on the living example and words of the transformed men chosen to initiate the spreading of the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ) • Each wall faces a cardinal direction (for people to enter from wherever they come from) and has 3 single pearl gates for entry that are never shut (transformation by The Spirit gives continuous access to people) • The street (path for fellowship) is transparent and of God’s divine nature. • The Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple (place for people to commune with God and offer satisfying offerings to Him • Only the glory of God provides its external light, with no natural light, and The Lamb (Jesus Christ the eternal resurrected redeeming sacrifice for men that overcomes their darkness) is the internal light • Gentile nations walk by the light of this city and rulers of earth bring their glory into it, and the nations enter the gates that are never closed to bring their glory and honor into it • Nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life • There is a river of water of life clear as crystal, that comes from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street (the center of its fellowship is filled with life flowing out from God and Jesus’ throne). • On either side of the river is the tree of life (Christ who hung from a tree to bear God’s wrath, was raised again, and gives life to all who receive him) bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit (satisfying life supply for our enjoyment) every month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations (Christ who heals the damaged world). • There will no longer be any curse there; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. • And, there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever. What do you say? Is this a good description of what is being built up in “The Lord’s Recovery”? JJ __________________ And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 NASB)