[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Well, Trapped. You aren't "out" either and if those whom you rely on helping you navigate out aren't out themselves then I think its premature to say you are out. Time will tell, of course and I wish you the best in whatever path your journey takes you.

As to "countless"... that is an argument from silence. A logical fallacy argument.

Sigh......please excuse my erroneous tense usage. Helpful in the process of navigatING me out then, sheesh. With this kind of thing there are actually levels of navigating out, and this forum has helped navigate me out of some initial levels, that is a fact.

The "countless" thing is most certainly not from silence. I have read numerous posts on this forum of people who actually say they are so glad they came across this website and that it helped them. Many often just post that much and then disappear to go on and lead their normal lives out of the LC. The fact that some people exist who overcame the inertia to register and post that information means there are others experiencing the same thing who simply did not put in writing their same experience. This is an argument from fact, sorry not sorry, bro.

If this forum wasn't helping people get out, DCP wouldn't spend any time monitoring it.

Originally Posted by Drake

I hear that in this forum from time to time... yet, I don't doubt some people have that thought... it's human. I heard similar reasonings in the holiness denomination "brother so-n-so got drunk, crashed his car and died, and in his drunken state went straight hell. He was our best song director to date and we'll miss him. So, don't drink or you might end up in hell". Stuff like that. Yet, your allegation is that the fear of getting whacked by God is systematized to keep people away from "the light outside the local churches". That is a ridiculous notion. Nothing has been systematized to keep people in fear from reading anything their lil ol heart desires. If you heard someone say it then I'll accept your testimony but that is an isolated incident. Just anecdotal not systematized.

This isn't a good comparison. In your example, the warning is against a sinful action - drinking to excess and then driving - with a direct negative result, the responsibility of which is not attributed to God. Anyone, Christian or not, in the LCs or out of it, would warn against that.

In the many examples former and current LCers have posted, the warning is that you seriously risk God arranging for your death if you leave the local churches. Couldn't be more different.

If your example stated "don't leave the denomination or you might get in a car crash and die", okay, but it doesn't make giving that impression to people right in any way, whether it's in the LC or in a denomination.

My testimony is not an isolated incident. It occurred repeatedly throughout my decades in the church. Many others have experienced the same thing, as evidenced on this forum. It is quite a shock to find a group of people you have never met from across decades and places who have also experienced and lived under the exact same "God will strike you down if you leave." This, to any logical person, would indicate a systemic form of control based on fear. Or at the very least a thought from the pit of hell that was freely allowed to be promulgated throughout the churches.

Originally Posted by Drake

I read your response and did not feel a compelled from the Lord to convince you or correct those erroneous conclusions. But since you asked and upon reconsideration before Him I'll take that opening as from the Lord.

Straight talk. You concluded "a1. Read and speak only Lee..."

I didn't ask what you thought of my conclusions. I asked what you thought of the quotes I posted. Yes, they are selected quotes because otherwise I would have to post the entire document again, but those quotes are there in black and white, and I'm curious what you would have to say about the direct quotes specifically.

You also only addressed the One Pub generally and did not say anything about quotes from afaithfulword.org concerning Lee as the wise master builder who ended God's overarching principle throughout the ages of there being a minister of the age.

Originally Posted by Drake

Had you said "publish only Lee" you would have been closer but still not 100% accurate. The One Publication makes it perfectly clear what Living Stream Ministry PUBLISHERS will PUBLISH. So you used material to shore up your concept by selectively picking statements to make your case. Yet, if you had fairly quoted other parts of the document you could not make the rational conclusion that you did above. In just a short time in this forum you have developed accusations based on selective reading. That takes us back to the very first point in this post. That is a pit, a quagmire that you should avoid... especially as a christian.

1. The title of the document is "Publication Work IN THE LORD'S RECOVERY". If it is simply supposed to be stating what LSM will publish, it should be titled "LSM's Publication Work". Easy.

2. The One Pub is signed by "the blended co-workers in the Lord's recovery". If it is simply about what LSM will publish, why wasn't it signed by LSM, rather than by a group who purport to represent and direct the entire Lord's recovery?

3. How do you interpret the latter half of the very first sentence of One Pub: "...we have long realized that there should be one publication among us." What on earth is that saying? Please explain. Who is "we" and who is "us"? LSM hasn't been mentioned yet in the document by this point, and the signers are not "LSM", so who is we and us?

4. The One Publication had every opportunity to make clear that it is only talking about what LSM will publish. That is an incredibly clear statement that a 12 year old could make in one short paragraph that no one would or should have an argument with. Paragraphs 4-5 do touch on it, however inadequately and clumsily. Somehow, though, an entire group of educated men could not make that very, very clear statement in pages upon pages of a boggy swamp of meandering text? Here, let me do it for you: "Living Stream Ministry exists to record and publish the ministry as interpreted and presented by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Living Stream Ministry will only publish works by these two saints. Anyone else who wishes to publish anything should seek to use another publisher and is not considered to be part of Nee or Lee's ministries." Easy. Done. Sign off and walk away.

5. The first sentence of the 6th paragraph states: "At times there may be writings among us that could be considered for publication as part of the one publication among us."

At first blush this sounds good (in that it seems like there is an opening for others), but the problem is they added the phrase "among us." If this is simply LSM stating what LSM will publish, and that what they publish is referred to as "the one publication", then the phrase "among us" has no business being there. "Among us" is one of the many subtle phrases distributed throughout the document to extend LSM's self-imposed restriction from LSM onto the entire Lord's recovery.

6. "While we all have a basic right to publish, in the Lord’s recovery we are governed by the higher vision of serving under the cross in a blended way in the Body, especially when it affects the churches and the dear saints everywhere. Since Brother Nee’s day we in the Lord’s recovery have been “restricted in one publication” (Elders’ Training, p. 161), and this restriction has resulted in one testimony among us. For decades we all have been nurtured and richly supplied by the one publication. The benefits of being restricted in one publication can hardly be denied."

Again, "while we all have a basic right to publish" sounds good at first blush, look what it is followed by: "we are governed by a higher vision". The principle this lays out is "yes, you have a right to publish BUT if you were really under the cross you won't."

What does "we in the Lord's recovery have been 'restricted in one publication'" mean, Drake?

Just because some saints have been nurtured and supplied by Nee/Lee's one publication, gives absolutely no credence whatsoever to the next sentence that "the benefits of being restricted in one publication can hardly be denied." This is like saying "for years sweet potatoes have supplied me with many nutrients. The benefits of being restricted to only sweet potatoes can hardly be denied." I mean....come on.

I will stop there for now, although I could keep going.

Regarding your statement about my development on this forum, I would have to say that sounds like something that someone who is monitoring and collecting information about posters and their trajectory on this forum would say......like DCP.

Originally Posted by Drake

Here are the facts. Living Stream Ministry publishes the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and other writers selectively. It is not their mission to publish everyone who wants to publish something. It's not their obligation to publish anyone's writings even if that person claims to be in fellowship with the ministry. Others may publish and have but in so doing they may not claim themselves representatives of Witness Lee. Neither do they need to apologize for defining that mission or tenaciously sticking to it.

See how easy and clear that was? No one would or should have a problem with that! Why didn't the One Pub say that? Your 6 sentence paragraph is all that needed to be said, if that indeed is all that the One Pub is about. But it's not......The One Pub is saying and trying to do AND RESTRICT so much more, which is why many have a big problem with it.

Originally Posted by Drake

I have hundreds of authors in my library and I read from them almost every week. It's not about control, deprivation, fear mongering, and other colorful schemes you and others attribute to the local churches and to the ministry that builds them. The One Publication is not about what you can read but about what they will publish. If you don't want to read Watchman Nee or Witness Lee writings don't. Read something else. Frankly, it's between you and the Lord......as is their right to publish whomever they prefer. If you want to publish something go to any number of christian publishers and maybe they will or maybe they will "get back to you". If you prefer to read books published by other publishers then go do that too.... you can have a book by almost any christian author you like, including Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, with just a few clicks on Amazon. No one will hunt you down so there is no need to feel trapped... go before the Lord and do what the Master tells you to do.

Oh I definitely do read what I want to and what the Lord leads me to, and I'm not trapped by the One Pub at all. But the One Publication IS about being "restricted" to "one publication" "among us". I am glad you do not follow it, but your not following it does not validate it's position. For time's sake I have to stop here, but there is more I could say.