[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

Nell,

While I am sure that I disagree in small parts here and there, the overall approach of Matt's premise seems sound.

I think that the real problem is the view of people as to what the "positions" are for. And for the most part, the Ephesians passage lays that out most clearly. They are called and given tasks for the purpose of helping the rest of us attain what Christ has commanded. In that sense, they do stand-in for God/Christ. But not so much as authorities, but as helpers.

Yes, they do have a kind of authority. But it is the authority of what they have learned that we have not learned, not an authority of hierarchical control, such as a government or military position.

That various positions and some amount of authority exists among the brothers is not issue to me, e.g., Eph. 4. Local Church leadership, through WLee has usurped whatever godly authority that exists as their own personal authority. They lord it over believers and demand absolute obedience. Hence, Matt's point: "The authority from God wielded by believers is not fully transferred to believers. They do not get to take ownership of the authority in the same manner as a Government Authority with a Citizen or with a Parent with a Child. ..." Each "position" in the LC seems to contain some degree of "delegated authority", increasing each step up the heirarchy.

And to underscore the point of what kind of authority they have, I like to look at Paul in a different way. And there is no better place to look at it than in his first letter to the Corinthians. In that letter, he tells them a lot. But he does in in a way of pleading with them coupled with a lot of discussion of the reasons that he is saying what he is saying and that they should seriously consider what he is saying. ...

I never heard pleading or "discussion". What I heard was "take it or leave...you rebel."

I do think that point #2 — that they make themselves less necessary — is a nuanced point. At some level, they will never be unnecessary. And there are at least 2 reasons for this.

There is a difference between "less necessary" and "unnecessary". Matt did not indicate that those "in authority" would become unnecessary at some point. However, in a family, as the family ages and grows, eventually as I experienced with my own parents, I became the caregiver to my parents as they aged. This had nothing to do with position or authority, but I became "equipped" to care for my parents as well as younger, growing, family members.

As believers mature, they have less need of apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as pastors and teachers but the believers grow into the roles or position/s of "helpers" as they mature.

I believe this is akin to your next point...

First, unless the church ceases to increase and all die away, there will always be some (all?) who will need help in their next steps on their way to the full-grown man that is spoken of in the scripture. Despite our increased abilities through significant literacy to somewhat self-feed in spiritual terms, unless we are able to avoid all worldly needs — jobs, families, etc. — most of us will always require some amount of spiritual direction. Yes, there was one place where John said we had no need that anyone teach us. But even in saying that, John was teaching and the understanding of that passage as a complete dismissal of teachers of the word is far beyond what I can only suggest is the obvious intent.
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The examples are not complete. But I think they make the point. Those that God supplies for our benefit will always be there. Just like the original disciples who were slowly replaced by others as they died, there are always those God calls and sends to us. We do well to see them and give them the proper respect they are due. Not as if some kind of authoritarian, but as authorities on their "subjects." As helpers on our journey of life.

But their part is not as governing officials or even local beat cops. They are servants to us to help us along the way. They may bring light to our failures and suggest what is necessary for correction. They may even reprove us at times. But never like the leaders of the world.

"The real work of the most notable gifted ones is to make themselves less necessary." ... rather than swing the "delegated authority" bat, the gifted ones pass along their gift.

I think we are mostly on the same page.

Nell