Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim
Sorry Boxy, I've already told you many times. No cross-posting from this forum to the main forum. Also no discussing the heresy of Unitarianism on the main forum. We already have our hands full in dealing with the heresies of Witness Lee and the Local Church.
You're an interesting fellow Boxy. You're obviously a very thoughtful guy. But you have a huge blind spot when it comes to what the main forum on LCD is all about. It is mainly about two things. One is to be a venue for former members to come and dialogue about the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church of Witness Lee. For some it is coming to terms with all that we learned and experienced in the movement. For some it is a chance to give a testimony of what God has done for them and shown them since escaping the LC.
The other reason is for current members to have a place to come and dialogue with forum LC members and even the general Christians public. Not many current members have taken advantage of LCD, but I am going to keep praying and hoping that they will.
LocalChurchDiscussions does not exist so that the heresies of Witness Lee get traded for the heresies of some other tiny, insignificant sect - Even a little sect as ancient as Unitarianism.
Lastly, I have asked you not to get me involved in your discussions over here on Alt Views. If you must insist on bringing something from the main forum over here, then I'm going to have to ask you to just address the issue(s) in a general way, and not make it something personal between you and me. For example, you brought over my last post, of which the greater part is a quote from Witness Lee. In this case, please address what Lee has written and leave me out of it.
In the meantime....please turn to your Bible and read out loud Philippians 2:6 -
Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped... (emphasis mine)
I have studied Koine Greek for the better part of 20 years now. I am very familiar with the Greek word ἴσος - isos - Commonly translated as EQUAL TO OR THE SAME. The apostle Paul was a very educated man. He chose his words very carefully. THE APOSTLE PAUL CLEARLY AND STRONGLY STATED THAT JESUS CHRIST WAS EQUAL TO AND THE SAME AS GOD.
Boxy, I know you desperately want this and the many other NT verses that clearly show that Jesus Christ is God to simply go away. This verse was not written 1500 years ago, or by some Roman Catholic theologian, or by Constantine or by Witness Lee. It was written by the first Christian theologian, who just happened to be the first trinitarian. Nothing you post....no matter how many times you post it...will ever make this verse disappear. I know you will try to explain it away by saying that nobody really understands what the apostle Paul was saying here, or that you're not interested in it. Please go to your local seminary and take a few years of Greek and then get back to us. OK?
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A lot to respond to here, let me see how well I can address your points: 1st, I don’t think you really have your hands full with dealing with WL/ LSM heresy, in fact, when it comes to addressing them I see very little critical cohesive arguments- I mean really, do you want to give a synopsis of the veracity of your main modalism thread as a “dealing with” what would be the most critical topic? As I have pointed out often, the foundational church did not include a Jesus is God gospel, a trinity god, a three person/ one God teaching. I have been adamant that what is labeled “recovery” really only went back to the 3-5th century and then proceeded to build a worse error in the processed triune god farce. I have offered that the real recovery would not include a trinity concept of any sort, but rather would stick to the admonition of Paul for oneness based on professing One God, the Father. This deals with all the heresy, not just Lee’s, and brings the assembling believers to the place of oneness, where the Spirit of God can testify, strengthen, and enlighten. What you, Untohim, present is NOT the foundational theology, but a 4th century alt-scripture. You are not dealing with the Lee heresy at all.
You say you have studied Greek for 20 years. Perhaps you would want to study the word “triada” and try to figure out why it is not used in reference to God. In your alt-scripture teaching, you ( and Lee) center on such a word and develop such a deep theological presentation, when the scripture does not. My speaking of One God, the Father has nothing to do with a Unitarian ( however you would define that) view, but is simply the teaching given to us by Paul. In your great Greek knowledge, and in your complete and lofty scripture understanding, now would be a good time to show all your feathers and repute as false Paul’s telling the Corinthians that there is but one God, the Father. And correct John in quoting Jesus when he tells us that the Father is the only true God. Perhaps you could school me as to why Paul, John, and Jesus missed telling up of a triada god. I would expect the apostles, Jesus, the scripture to carry the argument you are pontificating, not your 20 year Greek study. I am not trying to belittle you, or make myself into a know-it-all, but we all read the same scripture, and trust that it is giving us an accurate portrayal of God and Christ, and you insist on triada, which the scripture does not. And you are saying that I ant certain verses to go away? Brother, I’ve read the NT a multitude of times and have not seen the “many” verses you are talking about.
So let’s consider Paul and Philippians. You quote only a small part of Paul’s thought and focus on “equality”, which points to a sameness, yet Paul does not write Jesus is God, but that he existed in the “form” of God. Jesus’ working n earth was in the form of God working on earth. You have to read the entire section, where Paul says God (who Paul defines in the beginning of the letter as the Father, as he does in all his epistles God our Father. Read through the 1st chapter and see how Paul references God and Christ Jesus)
highly exalted, gave a name above all names. In your presentation, you are again missing the difference between God and His works and trying to equate God’s works as God. Jesus was the anointed, the Christ, came as Emmanuel- God with us, what God designed, Jesus did- the sameness of Gods working and Jesus working- didn’t go to Jesus calling himself God, but let people know that he was the Christ- and God, whom Paul defines as the Father, rewarded him. Jesus, if he was God, would not need exalting, would not need an exalted name, and in fact, if your version of scripture is correct, it should have said God called him God the Son, part of the triada you keep insisting exists, which the scripture does NOT refer to.
Triada was written up by the RC, not by Jesus nor the apostles.
I, once again, wish to thank you for your work and intentions in forming this site. I think I meet your criteria as an 13 year LCer who walked away when the “ elders” issued a written statement declaring there oneness with WL and LSM. I was there when John Smith gave his last adios message. My local meeting place was, in essence, stolen from the saints and turned over to the LSM business. It’s obvious we do not agree on some things, but I fear you have become like those you reject, not allowing a thorough discussion, but narrowing it only to those you agree with. It hurts the open discussion. I make my posts knowing and accepting that any and all can disagree- but that is what makes good discussion that leads to better understanding. When you post things that I find blatantly off the mark of scripture, I would think you would welcome a rebuttal. Triada is not a term applied to God.