Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim
Boxy,
Why are you discounting the plain words of the Gospel of John (again!). You only seem to want to believe the parts that align with your man-made Unitarian doctrines.
Jesus plainly and clearly stated (on more than one occasion) that he existed before the world began. You don't believe him, do you? Jesus plainly and clearly said he shared in the Father's glory. You don't believe him, do you? These are not my interpretations, but rather the plain and clear words of the God-man Jesus Christ.
I posted the verses. They are clear. God said he will not give his glory to another. Jesus Christ was also clear that he shared in God's glory with the Father before the world began. So which is it Boxy? Did Jesus Christ exist before the world began (like he said he did) and share in the Father's glory (like he said he did) or was he an insane heretic. It can't be both, Boxy. You have to chose. I know your method is just obfuscate and ignore, but I'm not going to let you get away with it. (cause I care for you and want to see you embrace the truth
You can post all the "one true God is only the Father" stuff all you want. Have at it. But you can't ignore the plain words of the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Untohim, in the realm of absolutes, one would have to conclude according to your use of verses, additional added interpretations, and the use of term God-man, and your abhorrence to Jesus’ own words that the Father is the only true God, that you have a certain spiritual insanity yourself. Our care for one another, I would think, should be toward eternal life. That eternal life was described by Jesus in John’s account attended by the apostles and maybe others, Jesus describes eternal life as knowing the Father the ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus CHRIST whom he sent. This is my point- that Jesus makes an absolute definition of eternal life, which says only true God- the Father. I would have to conclude from your various posts, that you do not accept that definition, but need a further one, that would include at least one other as God, and that seems to be the God-man you are referring to. So, in actuality, in your spiritual psyche you have a duo god, not the only true God of whom Jesus speaks. Is this not spiritual insanity? To take glory and make that key to a larger formulation of God, and who is God, when the person of interest, whom you make into a God-man said the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD. I can only surmise that the God-man you present is therefore a false god, not the true god.
And if Jesus is saying the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD, when in fact he himself is part of a greater duo part God, then we would have Jesus being not insane necessarily, but deceptive in his words- something I do not believe about my Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.
All the apostles apparently heard what John wrote. Yet, if you read through Acts, and also accept Paul as an apostle through the will of God, who was establishing the church, you will find that there was no mention of what you consider an absolute truth, that Jesus is a God-man and that God is more than one God, the Father. That would mean that the foundational church was not built on the truth, but only a quasi truth- a low low gospel as it were. I think it is well established that the writing of “ the gospel of John” was not there during the formation of the foundational church, and we have no scriptural evidence of God’s people running around speaking a gospel of Jesus being God. As I have repeatedly pointed out- which you call “stuff”, but what I call sound scriptural teaching that follows in accordance with all that Paul preached and taught, Paul clearly and in a warning way said that there was but one God, the Father. I accept this as truth; I think you should also, for the sake of your own spiritual sanity. When you start projecting a God-man into the scripture, you alter the scripture, the gospel, the Christian life, the church as the pillar and ground of the truth. Your spiritual stability comes in question, and it makes you sound like there is a touch of insanity. Take for instance our dear brother Ohio, who because it is scripture says he believes there is one God, the Father, but also believes a Jesus is God. Run that through a Boolean algebra algorithm and see what results- not logical!
I have stated before, and don’t mind stating again, that concerning the glory that Jesus is stating, I have no opinion because it is not the gospel that established the foundational church. Your perspective of that does not matchI what is spoken by Paul as the gospel. It does not appear the NT saints hold the opinion you hold, John’s gospel is in fact quite different in content that what is given in other gospels, Acts, and the epistles. You seem to want to make your interpretations of John’s writing overlord the rest of the NT. I step back and say, wait a minute something does not jive here. I mean which is true Luke’s account of Pentecost or John’s account of Jesus breathing into some of the apostles in a secret meeting. Maybe because Paul was not in that secret meeting he lacked something, but the NT does not follow the John account. And like I say, the John account came after the foundational church was laid. So, I choose to accept Paul’s gospel and ministry, which laid the foundation for the church, which foundation you call a man made unitarianism, and am skeptical of some of the things I read in John’s writing, precisely because they do not match the narrative of the rest of the NT, and we have no scriptural record of John laying a foundational church, and if what you conclude from John’s writing is a great tritheistic gospel and belief system and it is not taught in the rest of the NT, then yes, we are dealing with spiritual insanity.
All it would take is a gospel in Acts or statement by Paul that Jesus is God and God is 3 people, and I would be right there in your tritheistic party.
But such a teaching would take mounds of scripture to explain and it would have met sever opposition, and Paul and Jesus would not have told us that the one, only, true God is the Father.
I think your real care is for trinitarianism, that 4th century decree. And I understand your affinity for it. I understand it is the basis for your entire theology. I understand that you can’t accept both it and a decree by the apostle Paul that there is but one God, the Father- I get that, I was there one time myself. I was raised as a Roman Catholic, I went through 12 years of Catholic education, I was a fervent alter boy, I’ve been to numerous denominations and groups, and I spent I spent 13 years feeding on WL/LSM. I know what it is like trying to read the scripture through the 4th century prism. Untohim, the church will never be built on the foundation of trinitarian theology. I think at one time you cared for the things of the church. Now it seems that you have drifted into modern christianity. The church is built on the foundation that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God. The gospel is that Jesus is the Christ, that this perfect man died for our sins, that God raised him from the dead and he is seated on the right hand of God as our Lord and Christ. The gospel is not God is 3 people, Jesus is a God-man, Jesus reassumed his intrinsic position as God. You are presenting a false narrative. The seed our Master sowed is to bring forth fruit, trinitarianism is a false seed of tares- look what fruit has come forth since the 4th century. It’s time to “recover” the foundational church, something I fear you have thrust aside for the modern Christianity jingle bells theme. Wake up out of your stupor Untohim and look at what Paul ministered. You are so caught up in trinitarian John interpretations that you have become complacent in Christiandom. Is the modern Christianity really what Paul labored for, is it that thing for which our Master, Jesus will return?
Here is a John quote, in one of the rare places we read John had any interest in the church:
Rev 3.7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and none shall shut, and that shutteth and none openeth:
8I know thy works (behold, I have set before thee a door opened, which none can shut), that thou hast a little power, and didst keep my word, and didst not deny my name. 9Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. 12He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.
Untohim hear what the Spirit says to the churches- there is no trinitarian message!