Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim
Excellent post Boxy! Very cogent and succinct. Maybe your best ever on this thread.
I have another question for you. (It seems on only have time these days for questions and not engaging in long, drawn out arguments...please work with me here!) Once again, it is a sincere question, and it certainly is not meant to be leading or anything like that. I do think it is a question that folks like you would do well to take seriously, so please feel free to take some time and get back to me at your earliest convenience.
Question: What was this glory that the Lord Jesus shared with the Father before the world began?
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. John 17:5 ESV
καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ πάτερ παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί
***The question assumes that the Lord Jesus did in fact exist "before the world began", so if you have to, you can also include your interpretation about this aspect as well, but please keep the main focus on the question at hand. Thanks!***
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Untohim, once again, it is so good of you to do the Christian service and visit those imprisoned. Could you just dip your finger in water to quench the terrible thirst we experience down here in the dungeon? Maybe you could speak to my brethren and warn them not to post things about the need to proclaim one God, the Father, lest they also end up in this place of tormented exile. Of course, if they wouldn’t hear WL, why would heed your warning.
It took longer than I expected for this question to be asked, as it is a way to deflect from the most important concept Jesus is conveying about eternal life, Our Heavenly Father who is the one true God, Jesus the sent one and thank God, Us the believers. Let me just say, that because the scripture does not expand on “and now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.“, I am not qualified to answer, in that I don’t think anyone knows even vaguely what Jesus met. It seems there is a lot we do not know, particularly about eternity and the whole “heavenly” scene and the workings of God. Even the word “glory” is used quite a bit in the NT, and although I have thought of it often and what exactly it means- such as us receiving a glorified body, I have to confess I don’t know. It may be one of those things we won’t know until it happens. It is written that we were chosen before the foundation of the world, that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. I think it would have been great if God would give us more insight into these things, but we do not have such, and must live by faith and the scripture.
This is why I feel it is so important that God’s people do not entangle themselves in a man made version of God, but stick to the scripture. If Paul is telling that there is to us but one God, the Father, I think we best hold to this and not recreate God as a three people entity.
You kind of give the impression that Jesus was Lord prior to his birth, yet what I read, and what Paul wants us to see in Ephesians is the revelation of the working of God to make this man, Jesus, Lord. In other words, seems to me that the gospel is that God raised Jesus from the dead set him at His right hand and made him Lord over his creation at that time. We are to address and confess Jesus as Lord to the GLORY of the Father. Our thinking, our speaking, our living, our testimony is that God made this same crucified Jesus Lord. This Lordship apparently has a duration- sit at My right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. The Lordship of the Christ was, I think, a reward given to Jesus for redeeming us on the cross. The problem is now; we do not see all things subject to him.
Sorry, Untohim, I can’t really help you to understand “eternity past”, but I’m doing my best to point you to accept what the scripture says should be our stand today, the stand of the church and the churches- that God raised this Jesus from the dead and Stephen saw the heavens open and the son of man standing on the right side of God. This is supposed to be our testimony today. Can you imagine if WL would have “recovered” this and the churches would have been filled with a Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ anthem instead of the processed triune god sweep?
Now that would have been GLORIOUS! Can you see it Untohim? Can you accept it and proclaim it? It is trinitarianism that belongs in the BIG dungeon! It has warped the gospel and the scripture.
And besides- wasn’t Jesus the name given to the child born in Bethlehem as the angel instructed? Didn’t that holy child, after he rose from the dead tell Mary I ascend to my God and your God to my Father and your Father. And didn’t he tell the disciples All power in heaven and earth Has been GIVEN to me.
Let’s proclaim the true gospel, Untohim, the one the Holy Spirit can witness to, the one we read of in Acts.
And, I know you only like short snippy replies because I have to jump through hoops to give anything longer than a couple of sentences!