Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim
Thank you Boxjobox for your kind, reasonable and thoughtful post. This forum could sure use a lot more of this - on the homepage as well as over here in the dongeon
Maybe I should give a short post with a short explanation of why I don't allow discussions of non orthodox (aka traditional, historical) theology over on the homepage of LCD. It is actually not for purely theological reasons, but also for some very practical reasons. One major reason would be the practical limitations of time and space on a forum with the limited scope of LCD. I have observed over the years that if an open Internet forum does not limit the scope of the discussions it soon becomes too large and unwieldy, and eventually loses the focus of it's mission. Off-topic, off-the-wall and totally irrelevant postings become the rule instead of the exception.
And speaking of the mission...one of the main parts of the mission of LCD is to become a "safe and sane" place for current and former LC members to have open dialog regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church of Witness Lee movement. Many out there would question how much we have fulfilled this mission....especially our friends over at the LC/LSM headquarters over there on La Palma in Anaheim. In any event, my personal belief is that the real help and healing for all current and former LC members is to hear, fellowship and imbibe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, and to enter into the real teaching and fellowship of the apostles, both of which have been preserved for us down through the ages to this present day.
Anything that detours LCD from this core mission can quickly become a major problem as far as I'm concerned, and as the sole admin/moderator I feel obligated to protect the forum from such distractions.
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Untohim, I do appreciate the main site, and also that the alternate site is available for discussion. I, for one, as I think you also share, have a desire to see the true recovered churches , and not a misuse of the container as practiced by WL/LSM. Where we probably would differ is on what is the main misuse. On the main site, there is the continuous cycle of the daystar, Philip Lee, WL authoritarianism, cultish conformity issues and the like. Every now and then, the old triune thing pops up in various forms; this time in modalism. In my view, the major fundamental flaw that corrupted was this very thing- everything else is legitimate gripes, but not as paramount as the processed triune god theology WL filled the churches with. It was this that really gave him his LSM business product. He named his business, passed it off ( with the help of all of us through our compliance and purchases) as the ministry of the age, as the speaking of God, as the only legitimate view, and as the carrot and stick to keep the elders and saints in line. It’s unbelievable to me, when I look back on it all, that we all fell for it for some time, that we didn’t see it for what it was, that we gave credence to it. I left in ‘86 when, after John Smith walked away from it and the “elders” in my city signed off In writing a “we turn over the assembly and meeting place to WL/LSM.” I have done a lot of review and consideration, and fleshing out of what I really believe, what the scripture plainly says, and what was just the plain WL hogwash. I think WL pretty much took what W Née had presented concerning the matter of the local church, and used that as the catch to create his business. The local churches then became his clientele for his business adventures- mainly pedaling the word of God worked over with his own theology/ philosophy as his merchandise. Everyone loves to have the Bible explained and put in neat little packages, so he played us like a fiddle, as it were, and we all danced for him.
The entire thought of the church, the scripture, God, Christ, the trinity controversy, apostles, the truth, church practices has a history since the resurrection of Christ and the pouring out of the Spirit. WL/ the LC is not apart from this whole history. Obviously, the writings we have as scripture do not include the teachings that God is triune, and I would say the teachings that Jesus is God falls in this as well. I realize that this is highly controversial, particularly considering church history. None the less, in my reading and considering of the NT and considering what a major change such a belief would have been to the Jews as well as to the gentiles, such a concept as a man being God would have had to have a large, expansive teaching to be accepted, and that just doesn’t appear in the NT. That same, and maybe even more so would be the introduction that God is triune, that there are three persons in one being. No such teaching.
It does appear in the NT, quite plainly concerning One God the Father- this is taught, spoken, referred, explained, throughout the NT, it is the basis of eternal life, it is the basis for our oneness. Indeed, the recognized creeds start with I believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth. Successive creeds followed with evolutionary thoughts on Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Church etc. as time moved forward. Today most denominations and assemblies have some form of belief that refers to God being triune.
So in the present state, along comes the “recovery” of the church. I would think, the recovery of the church would/should take us back to the scriptural foundation of all things. Untohim, your reliance on church history to support trinitarianism would only take us back to the 3rd century, NOT to what was presented in the scriptures. There is no preaching, teaching, declaration of God being triune in the scriptures. The whole trinity thing is as if a song was written in C major, the song got altered in the 4th century to F major and was played in F major for all these years and someone comes talking about recovery and sets the song in B minor, and then everyone wants to argue If F major is right or B minor is wrong. The original song was composed in C major! A recovery would return the song back to C major, or there would not really be a recovery! So a group sits in the great auditorium that was around when the song was composed and performs it in B minor and says “See, we recovered the great auditorium”— but the song is all wrong!!
The all important talk in the NT is concerning the One True God, the Father, sending His son Jesus for our salvation. The Apostles talk about the one True God, the gospel is about the belief that God sent His son. That God raised him from the dead and made this same Jesus both Lord and Christ, head over all to the church. The trinity thing altered the entire gospel message. Why has the church been in such a Spiritless state since the 4th century? Because the song was altered from C to F. Does anyone really think the Holy Spirit is going to bear witness to this alteration? Does it not appear that what was given us as the word of God has been altered by the “wisdom” of man into song of a different key? A recovery must bring us back not only to how to meet, but the correct content. The apostles all speak of the one God the Father, the son speaks of the One God, the Father, the angles profess the one God, the four living creatures, the 24 elders, even the evil spirits and even the devil admit to One God. Why has the song been altered by that which should be the pillar and ground of the truth?
WL further altered the song not to recovery but to a further degradation of the truth.
Do we really want to proceed down the whole trinity thing when it was not given to us by the scriptures? Is there some great error in speaking of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus- seems like in the recovery this should have been the main thing recovered. Did we pray as Jesus taught us “Our Father”? I think it is apparent that that part of the song was severely altered in the LC. WLs ministry led us astray to such a degree we did not even pray correctly! It was not a recovery, but a degradation.
Looking at the 7 churches in Revelation, the first Ephesus, lost their first love. The greatest commandment is to Love the Lord your God. Paul’s epistle to the Ephesians beseeched them to acknowledge the one God the Father, which apparently they had a problem with. Then comes the teaching of the nicolaitans, teaching and stumbling of Balak and Balaam, and then the teaching of Jezebel. The one church that is highly honored by our head, Jesus is Philadelphia, of which the reward is Jesus saying Rev 12He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. Seemslike there is a whole lot of witness to the God of our Lord Jesus in that reward!
Is it really that hard to drop the whole trinity thing and all the offshoots that are endlessly argued about and return to one God the Father, who is above all, through all and in all, and to return to the fellowship that was with the Father and with His son Jesus Christ. This is what the Holy Spirit leads us to do. The song was written in C major; give up the man made F major rendition, and definitely save yourself from the B minor WL version. Recovery apparently starts individually with each one of us so that we properly worship the Father as Jesus taught and practiced and as the apostles taught and practiced.
Untohim, you are missing the main problem with the “recovery “