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Raptor · 06-10-2020, 04:51 AM

Separation, NO!

TLDR: Jesus referred to Himself as Father, and the Father referred to Himself as Jesus. They are inseperable, they are in each other, they are One.

Which brings me to a revisiting of John 14:6-11, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.” Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves.

“Lord, show us the Father,
“ I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me?
I am coming to the inevitable conclusion that Jesus referred to Himself as the Father, and the Father referred to Himself as Jesus. They are talking about the Father, and Jesus answers, with "I" and "Me". Who are these personal pronouns referring to? Jesus is speaking, but the subject of the conversation is the Father. Why does Jesus answer in first person? Because it is the Father that is answering. Let´s look at it again: "Show us the Father"...."I have been with you....you do not know Me?" Surely that refers to the Father, the Father is speaking.

If not, it would have been in the third person and Jesus would have said "He has been with you....you do not know Him?" But it´s in the first person, so it is the Father. Yet Jesus is speaking, Jesus' mouth is moving, Jesus' voice is coming out, Jesus is probably looking at Phillip, maybe Jesus' hands are moving. But Jesus says "I" and "Me," referring to the Father. It would make no sense that the "I" and "Me" would be referring to Jesus Himself because they are talking about the Father. Jesus speaks but the Father is the one speaking. Jesus refers to Himself, because Jesus uses the first person, Jesus says "I" and "Me", but it is the Father speaking. So Jesus refers to Himself as the Father. Jesus says to know Jesus is to know the Father, and to hear Jesus speak is to hear the Father.

In addition, the Father is speaking, and when He says "I" and "Me", it refers back to Jesus, because Jesus was speaking, Jesus' mouth was moving. So the Father refers to Himself as Jesus. Anybody there could see Jesus speaking and hear Jesus' words coming out, but it was the Father speaking. The Father says "I" and "Me", but the Father knew you are looking at Jesus and hearing Jesus say "I" and "Me", so the Father identifies Himself with Jesus.

Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father.
If there is any doubt, Jesus then even refers to Himself again as the Father by the sense of sight. Before it was a matter of the mind, knowing Jesus is knowing the Father, and a matter of the sense of hearing, hearing Jesus is hearing the Father. Now seeing Jesus is seeing the Father.

How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Jesus makes the further point that it is almost non-sensical to ask about showing the Father, because you have been knowing the Father, hearing the Father and seeing the Father all along! Again Jesus identifies Himself with the Father.

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me?
If there is any doubt, Jesus seals it with the fact that Jesus and the Father mutually indwell each other. How dare we separate them? Who gives you the right to separate Jesus from the Father if Jesus explicitly and clearly says the Father is in Him and He in the Father? At what point do you yank them apart? If you do, it is unbelief, plain and simple. You don´t believe Him or the word of God.

The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own, instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me.
Again, clearly Jesus says that it is the Father speaking. Not just that Jesus quotes the Father, or relates to us what the Father said, but it is the Father dwelling in Jesus who speaks. Who are you to "undwell" the Father and oust Him from Jesus?

Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves.
An appeal to believe and still Jesus considering we might not fully believe gives us the last chance: at least believe on account of the works. If you don´t believe Jesus' words, if you don´t believe the written word of God, then at least believe the works, for they speak for themselves...last chance.

If you imagine this conversation, see them engage and speak in your imagination, it becomes so clear. It would be perfectly normal, logical and absolutely within context to hear Jesus speak this and respond to Jesus saying, "Father! Yes, You are right, You have been here with us all along. Yes Father, now I know You." You can look at Jesus and tell Him, "Now I see You Father, now I hear You Father, now I believe". You can address Jesus and say, "Father, You are in Jesus, and Jesus, You are in the Father. Thank you Father, thank you Jesus." No wonder Isaiah 9:6 says, the Son will be called mighty God, everlasting Father. Jesus refers to Himself as the Father and the Father refers to Himself as Jesus. No wonder Jesus says in John 10:30 "I and the Father are One".

06-10-2020, 04:51 AM	#102
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 414	Re: Modalism Separation, NO! TLDR: Jesus referred to Himself as Father, and the Father referred to Himself as Jesus. They are inseperable, they are in each other, they are One. Which brings me to a revisiting of John 14:6-11, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.” Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves. “Lord, show us the Father, “ I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? I am coming to the inevitable conclusion that Jesus referred to Himself as the Father, and the Father referred to Himself as Jesus. They are talking about the Father, and Jesus answers, with "I" and "Me". Who are these personal pronouns referring to? Jesus is speaking, but the subject of the conversation is the Father. Why does Jesus answer in first person? Because it is the Father that is answering. Let´s look at it again: "Show us the Father"...."I have been with you....you do not know Me?" Surely that refers to the Father, the Father is speaking. If not, it would have been in the third person and Jesus would have said "He has been with you....you do not know Him?" But it´s in the first person, so it is the Father. Yet Jesus is speaking, Jesus' mouth is moving, Jesus' voice is coming out, Jesus is probably looking at Phillip, maybe Jesus' hands are moving. But Jesus says "I" and "Me," referring to the Father. It would make no sense that the "I" and "Me" would be referring to Jesus Himself because they are talking about the Father. Jesus speaks but the Father is the one speaking. Jesus refers to Himself, because Jesus uses the first person, Jesus says "I" and "Me", but it is the Father speaking. So Jesus refers to Himself as the Father. Jesus says to know Jesus is to know the Father, and to hear Jesus speak is to hear the Father. In addition, the Father is speaking, and when He says "I" and "Me", it refers back to Jesus, because Jesus was speaking, Jesus' mouth was moving. So the Father refers to Himself as Jesus. Anybody there could see Jesus speaking and hear Jesus' words coming out, but it was the Father speaking. The Father says "I" and "Me", but the Father knew you are looking at Jesus and hearing Jesus say "I" and "Me", so the Father identifies Himself with Jesus. Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. If there is any doubt, Jesus then even refers to Himself again as the Father by the sense of sight. Before it was a matter of the mind, knowing Jesus is knowing the Father, and a matter of the sense of hearing, hearing Jesus is hearing the Father. Now seeing Jesus is seeing the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Jesus makes the further point that it is almost non-sensical to ask about showing the Father, because you have been knowing the Father, hearing the Father and seeing the Father all along! Again Jesus identifies Himself with the Father. Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? If there is any doubt, Jesus seals it with the fact that Jesus and the Father mutually indwell each other. How dare we separate them? Who gives you the right to separate Jesus from the Father if Jesus explicitly and clearly says the Father is in Him and He in the Father? At what point do you yank them apart? If you do, it is unbelief, plain and simple. You don´t believe Him or the word of God. The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own, instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me. Again, clearly Jesus says that it is the Father speaking. Not just that Jesus quotes the Father, or relates to us what the Father said, but it is the Father dwelling in Jesus who speaks. Who are you to "undwell" the Father and oust Him from Jesus? Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves. An appeal to believe and still Jesus considering we might not fully believe gives us the last chance: at least believe on account of the works. If you don´t believe Jesus' words, if you don´t believe the written word of God, then at least believe the works, for they speak for themselves...last chance. If you imagine this conversation, see them engage and speak in your imagination, it becomes so clear. It would be perfectly normal, logical and absolutely within context to hear Jesus speak this and respond to Jesus saying, "Father! Yes, You are right, You have been here with us all along. Yes Father, now I know You." You can look at Jesus and tell Him, "Now I see You Father, now I hear You Father, now I believe". You can address Jesus and say, "Father, You are in Jesus, and Jesus, You are in the Father. Thank you Father, thank you Jesus." No wonder Isaiah 9:6 says, the Son will be called mighty God, everlasting Father. Jesus refers to Himself as the Father and the Father refers to Himself as Jesus. No wonder Jesus says in John 10:30 "I and the Father are One".