Gospelicious

Thank you, Untohim, this makes you and OBW's position on the Trinity much more crystal. I fully agree with that position and, for the life of me, cannot see what the problem is. So, I have gone over OBW's submissions again, more carefully; and I am afraid I may have misunderstood him.

In one of the items of his criticism of Lee's teachings, for example, OBW attacked Lee's claim that 'Jesus is simply the Father'. I did not catch the gist of his argument and wrongly supposed that he was insinuating that Jesus is not God (I, naturally, rushed to the Lord's side, sword in hand, to protect His honor). Having re-read his earlier posts, though, I can see now that is clearly not what he intended to mean.

However, while I agree that 1 Corinthians 15: 45 may have been misinterpreted by Lee, I must confess that we have a significant point of departure concerning 2 Cor 3:17 (here I think Lee was spot on).

I now believe that 1 Cor 15:45 actually references the Lord's human spirit, him being a proper human being, and how that this spirit, now filled with life in resurrection, in turn, gave life, or 'quickened' his dead and crucified body to raise it in incorruption.

This view not only explains the indefinite article used in relation to the "Spirit", but also is in keeping with the wider context of the chapter touching on the resurrection of our bodies, plus also presenting an apt contradistinction to Adam's having only 'become a living soul'. By extension, this would also suggest that, today, as believers, our human spirits, indwelt and powered by the Holy Spirit, quicken, or will quicken, our mortal bodies. I'm not yet all-ten-toes-in with this interpretation, however, and would appreciate some feedback highlighting possible errors because even I, myself, am able to deploy arguments to undermine it.

As for 2 Cor 3:17, how can there be any question about this? "now the Lord is THAT Spirit" What Spirit? THAT Spirit! Now, instead of wondering whether the Greek capitalises the word 'spirit' or not (opening up a whole new can of worms) why don't we look at the whole context within which the word occurs, tracing the entire line of argument all the way back to its genesis? Wouldn't that yield greater understanding other than descending into debates about whether the 's' is upper case or lower case, or as some Cardinal clowns I know confidently suggested, that since angels are 'holy' and they are 'ministering spirits', therefore they are the holy spirit. I mean...

"Now the Lord is THAT Spirit/spirit" The question is 'what Spirit/spirit?' The answer, of course, lies in the preceding verses. Verse 3 of the very chapter says:
"forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit/spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart."
It is clear therefore, that any mention of the Spirit/spirit in this chapter, as in, "now the Lord is THAT Spirit/spirit" is in reference to the "Spirit/spirit of the living God". This is just common sense...my three-year-old grand-...but I digress...

[^note^ I have rendered the word 'spirit' in both capitalized and uncapitalized form in order to pre-empt and cut off recourse to this most misleading line of reasoning]

And so, who is the 'Lord' in the verse "now the LORD is that Spirit"? Once again, context is key here. Remember that we are reading an epistle here, a letter, an ancient 'tweet', if you will. It must be cohesive and coherent. At the very least, on the surface of it, it must be able to explain itself.

It is misleading to reason that because the title 'Lord' occurs in other parts of the Bible that don't refer directly to Christ, or can't possibly mean Christ because he wasn't born yet, etc, etc, therefore there is no certain way of knowing whether or not this particular mention of the 'Lord' in 2 Corinthians refers to him or not. This is a false argument purely intended to NOT identify Christ with the Spirit. Well there is a certain way. And that is by looking into the text in question itself without migrating to other parts of Scripture.

By simply casting back to Paul's salutation in this epistle, he writes, "Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the 'Lord' Jesus Christ" (2 Cor 1: 2). Jesus Christ is THAT Lord. The title 'Lord' occurs two other times in 2 Cor 2: 12 and 3:16 before the controversial verse in question. And in the former case, the 'Lord' is reported by Paul as having fulfilled a role normally reserved for the Holy Spirit. But that should be no wonder, because "the Lord is THAT Spirit"

In addition to all that, when you sum up the general thought of the third chapter, you find Paul outlines some negative items, like 'the old testament' and 'ink' and 'tables of stone' and 'the ministration of condemnation' 'the producing of death' and 'veiled hearts' and 'veiled faces' and 'the fading glory'.

Then Paul draws a very neat contradistinction between these foregoing items by outlining the following positive items, i.e. 'the new testament' and 'the Spirit of the living God' and 'fleshly tables of the heart' and 'the ministration of righteousness' and the 'ministration of the Spirit' and 'the giving of life' and 'unveiled hearts' and 'open faces' and 'the exceeding & excelling glory'

Once you get into the heart of what Paul is burdened to highlight in these verses i.e. that the old covenant is a photo negative of the new covenant, and that the Law stands in contradistinction to the Spirit, it is really difficult to see how anybody can conclude that the 'Lord' in verse 17 is some other lord, and not the Lord, and that the 'Spirit' in the same verse is not the Spirit, but some other spirit. It simply does not follow from the context. And consequently Paul's whole foregoing thought falls apart and his polemic becomes a meaningless jumble of words. One must really be following hard on the heels of Moses to not get this.

"but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; WHICH VEIL IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST. But even unto this day (in 2019), when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless, when [their heart] shall TURN TO THE LORD (Christ) THE VEIL SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY.

2 Corinthians 3: 14-16

Be blessed and unveil yourselves