[Drake]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Anyone can see that on the one hand we need to love ourselves, on the other we need to deny ourselves. But that is really the "self" from two different perspectives. First, as a precious creation of God which he loves, and second as a fallen creation that tends to put itself first. Both sides are true and both are valid.

Sure Igzy. I have no problem with that statement as is.... but then...

Originally Posted by Igzy

Lee, in yet another spasm of trying to be brilliant but falling flat, decided that "the self" was a bad thing, "the fallen soul." But the Bible never says that, that's his categorization. The self is simply a person in relationship to himself. That relationship can be holy and healthy, or it can be fallen and unhealthy. But wholesale disregarding of "the self" is not God's thought.

....and here is where we disagree. And this isn't minutia but a very important realization for the believer to serve God. Our self, our old man, everyone's self, old man, was only worthy of crucifixion. That is why our self was crucified on the cross. Sin in the flesh uses the self to carry out its wishes through the body. Therefore Paul writes:

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:6

That is by making the old man unemployed, through crucifixion, sin no longer had an instrument through which to fulfill its wishes. Only the new life of Christ imparted into the believer can satisfy God's will and God's heart and confine the sin in the flesh and to be without a means to execute its desires. That is why the anything that issues from the self is untrustworthy.... and unworthy.

Originally Posted by Igzy

I've noticed you have a problem with relating to people in a warm, brotherly fashion. You are rather cold and distant..

To be frank here Igzy, you're not exactly the poster child for warm brotherly love. I'll yield that I am not either. To my observation, in this forum, I think the ones who come nearest that description would be ZNP and Awareness. I may disagree with them on content but not on their manner toward others in this forum. (Not that they too don't get snippy once in awhile). ;-)

Drake