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Originally Posted by awareness
I guess it's just you and me bro ZNP.
It's biological. I doubt we're ever gonna see a male team against a female team at the Superbowl. It becomes cultic when embedded in religion. That women should shut up in the church is cultic. And cultic that women have to wear head covering (so the sons of God don't come and violate them during the meeting ... apparently).
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Yes it is biological. It makes sense that for 9,950 years of human history women took on the jobs that have been replaced by appliances, and they also had the major job of child rearing for the first few years of life. When the women's suffrage movement first began the argument was that the woman would be 35 by the time all her children left her care and could live for another 50 years, therefore she needed a career. However, in practice women begin their career just like men and we warehouse the kids. 50 years is far too short to know what the impact of this dramatic change will be.
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Originally Posted by awareness
Is that sort of stuff what God demands? No. It's projected upon God, from the customs and mores of the times when Christianity was born, during Paul's times.
Then why do "women" have to learn from their "male" husbands? Seems in practice there are, or were, male and female after all. But female was lower than male, and are commanded to be obedient. And Paul adds, "And if they will learn any thing," like it's not likely they can even learn. That's why none of the NT books are written by women ; they were illiterate because they weren't allowed to be educated.
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It always bothers me that people get so outraged at one verse while ignoring another. Paul also said "let everyone be subject one to another" in the very same context. Are you so arrogant that you can't learn from your wife? Why can't she learn from her husband?
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Originally Posted by awareness
Exactly. "Given the feelings of the day," that even Paul couldn't escape. Cuz he clearly distinguished between male and female. Paul must have been speaking in the abstract when he said no male or female.
But they are one flesh. So why are elders only male? Seems to me if they are one flesh both are elders.
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That is how I read it and that is how it works in practice.
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Originally Posted by awareness
Now you must be speaking in the abstract. It doesn't work out that way. Men are in the leadership. Were the wives considered leaders in the local church?
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In NY I lived with one of the elders. His wife was very influential and pretty much called the shots in her zone of authority, but she did this behind the scenes. I also saw this in Taipei, Andrew Yu's wife was very influential.
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Originally Posted by awareness
Not true. You certainly haven't proven it. The rest of the above is too much to bother unwrapping.
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Let's take a vote. I say I have proven it.
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Originally Posted by awareness
That one hit my funny-bone. Thanks for the belly laugh.
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I'm glad we could have a reasonable discussion