[Kevin]

LC's orginal post in Facebook:

"A servant of the Lord has no salary unlike those in the denominations are making business and jobs"

My response in the comments from the LC's OP:

Kevin: I would like to make a response to the OP, first of all, as we engage doctrinal discussions over differing conclusions, the tone and mood should be done in the spirit of charity and love instead of being hostile to one another. Also, the scriptures commands us that we should be like the bereans to test everything with objective, honest and intense scrutiny (Acts 17:11). Let scripture should be our final authority for faith and practice.

To cut to the chase, let me first address the OP:

"The premise that elders/pastors should not be paid a salary in their service of the church."

I understand the OP makes a good point that it's also true that some are there for the money especially the false teachers of our day who are filthy rich literaly, namely the prosperity pastors.

"Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him. (1 Corinthians 4:1-5)

By the way, there's no negative connotation in the NT regarding pastor /elder receiving wages. The pattern goes way back in the OT - the priesthood received the tithes for their support.

In the New Testament leadership, every churches have plurality of leaders and no one is higher in position than the others. The reason for church support was not about who is the highest of the leaders but who does the work that requires full-time commitment according to the calling of the Lord. Those who are gifted and led to be preachers and teachers in the church have a mandate from scriptures to be supported.

The standard verse referenced in that regard is 1 Timothy 5:18 (ESV): "For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” Paul uses that same Old Testament reference in 1 Corinthians 9:9-14.

The word "double honor" in 1 Timothy 5:17 pertains to monetary support base on the context.

Looking up the term,
"wages"
________________________

Original: μισθός
Transliteration: Misthos

- Phonetic: mis-thos'

- Definition:

1. dues paid for work

a. wages, hire

2. reward: used of the fruit naturally resulting from toils and endeavours

a. in both senses, rewards and punishments

b. of the rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavours

c. of punishments

- Origin: apparently a primary word

- TDNT entry: 15:35,6

- Part(s) of speech: Noun Masculine

- Strong's: Apparently a primary word; pay for service (literally or figuratively) good or bad: - hire reward wages.
Cognate: G3405, G3406, G3407, G3408, G3409, G3410, G3411, G489
_________________________

Pastor/Missionaries who have full-time ministries should be supported by the church, BUT pastors/elders, missionaries may have an option to receive it or not depending on many possible reasons...

"Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you without charge? I robbed other churches by taking wages from them to serve you; and when I was present with you and was in need, I was not a burden to anyone; for when the brethren came from Macedonia they fully supplied my need, and in everything I kept myself from being a burden to you, and will continue to do so."
(2 Cor. 11:7-9)

Getting support or love gift or salary whatever different churches call it are both instructed and optional.

LC: So, salary paid? As far as i know support or love gift are different from wage.

Kevin: Carlo, sometimes semantics cause a little bit troubling.

LC: Bro again to support or to offer are different from giving a wage..

Kevin: Again, the Scripture text that says "The laborer deserves his wages". Receiving wages as fruit of your labor is biblical.

LC: The question is that verse refers to the church system or for the elders? Because worldly system must not brought to the church..

Kevin: Then kindly exegete the passage.

LC: Bro.. You have two definition of wages above.
1. dues paid for work
a. wages, hire

2. reward: used of the fruit naturally resulting from toils and endeavours

Now let me clarify it to you bro and compare the two meaning of what kind of wages the elders received?

1.First of all an elder is NOT HIRED by the church so there's no wages (def. 1 ) Only the hired person needs payments.
But a wages (def. 2) a reward from their labor. A double honor or offering. And an offering is not fixed and known to everyone. Thats what the elders received.. A support an love offering or honor for them not wages (def. 1) as a hired person.

2. If the bible mentioned wages in relation to labors of an elder. It is a wages (def.2) that is a reward and not fixed..So it is not a wages of being hired or having a fixed amount to receive .(def. 1).

3. They labor and they received wages(def. 2) or reward (def.2) as in luke 10:7 "And in that house remain, eating and drinking the things FROM them, for the worker is worthy of his wages. Do not move from house to house."

They received a reward or wages(def.2).... Wages(def. 1) not as a HIRED person.

4. 1 Cor. 9:9 - For in the law of Moses it is written: “You shall not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God cares?

"Or does He say it altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written because the a plowman should plow in hope, and he who threshes, in hope of partaking." (1 Cor. 9:10)

In this verse in relation to 1 tim. 5:18 ...it emphasized that a plowman should plow in hope.

That's living by faith.. Not living by PAYMENT (def. 1).

5. Nowhere in the bible you can find out that church hired a pastor or an elder but they are appointed by the apostles.. Not HIRED by the church.

They have a wages(def. 2) a reward and honor but never a wages (def. 1) because they are not a hired person.

6. The church never practice the worldly sytem. As what Christianity do today.. Having a hired pastors or priest ..pastors for hire.. Is that the way the church practice in the beginning? Nope.

APPOINTED not HIRED.

Kevin: Just a quick response: First of all, fallacious "Hired". We never hire pastors. That is not our position

LC: Aw that's good bro. Anyway let's just stop here.. I do not sense life here anymore.. Thank you bro.. Amen.

Kevin: In that case, this will be my last response on per items.

"1.First of all an elder is NOT HIRED by the church so there's no wages (def. 1 ) Only the hired person needs payments.
But a wages (def. 2) a reward from their labor. A double honor or offering. And an offering is not fixed and known to everyone. Thats what the elders received.. A support an love offering or honor for them not wages (def. 1) as a hired person."

Remember what I said above that there's really no difference from the office of an elder and pastor biblically speaking? And the reason for supporting them depends on the kind of service they render, fulltime or part time. A full-time elder/pastor should be fully supported financially, it's not important how you call the support, be it called support or salary? And I also said that the full-time pastor may even receive or decline the financial support if he can do without it?

The problem with churches regarding supporting of pastors/elders stem from the unbiblical principles of doing ministry. Pastor/elders are commended to service and not hired as the norm in Christianity today. They are homegrown tested Christian individuals who have qualified lives and gifts that the church recognizes. It's not like a pro basketball where you hire an imported player to lead the team in terms of scoring.

Think about this very carefully.

Elders equals pastors, not elders, then pastors, then bishop, no no they are one and the same and no hierarchy of position.

Getting into a full-time work is not through hiring an outsider but commending a homegrown.

Support or salary are just different terms of financial renumeration. It does not matter what the mode of giving, amount should be generous or double portion.

Not all homegrown elders/pastors needs or wants to be supported in the biblical church set up. You see the problems that arise regarding financial support issue stem from the unbiblical views and practices of church ministry.

"2. If the bible mentioned wages in relation to labors of an elder. It is a wages (def.2) that is a reward and not fixed..So it is not a wages of being hired or having a fixed amount to receive .(def. 1)."

Again bro, this statement is coming from the grave misunderstanding and administration of church leadership. Yes the support of pastors/elders may not be fixed because church offerings aren't fix either, but there should be no issues whether fixed or not fixed, the pastors still can live by faith on a fixed salary amount because they trust in the Lord everyday and they don't live on bread alone. I hope you are beginning to see my point bro.

Unbiblical church leadership and administration lead to problems like that.

The term wages is just the same as salary and it's not important.

wage\ˈwāj\
noun
: an amount of money that a worker is paid based on the number of hours, days, etc., that are worked
Full Definition
1 a : a payment usually of money for labor or services usually according to contract and on an hourly, daily, or piecework basis — often used in plural

sal·a·ry\ˈsal-rē, ˈsa-lə-\
noun
: an amount of money that an employee is paid each year
Full Definition
: fixed compensation paid regularly for services

They are both defined as payment. But terms are not important but the obedience of supporting those who work for the Lord.

We may call it reward as well. It doesn't matter how we call it as long as it is generous and double portion. The Lord will not reward us by picking the perfect term.

Giving fix amount of wages/salary in my opinion is practical and wise as long as the church can afford it. But it does not mean that the church is tied to giving fix amount, it might even grow bigger or get smaller at times, and the pastor should be flexible about it as well.

Some churches who are against giving fix amount are saying it's not living by faith but they do not give generously either. Thus they are actually putting the life of the pastor not really by faith but by FATE.

LC: Ok bro go om to your support in salary. To your hired pastor.. Pls don't say not hired.. Because if we talk about salary it's a matter of hiring.

Kevin: *scratching my head

End of discussion.....


Actually, we had a long discussion about this, but it ended up a fight. The LC was such a scoffer.