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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!
Man, you guys are all so far above my public scholl education - I need a nap!  
I'm curious - does anybody ever officially "win" one of these debate hootenannies? |
You mis-spelled "school". Who are you? (kidding)
This is, hopefully, a discussion. AKA "Local Church Discussions". My idea of a discussion is that both parties learn something. Versus a lecture or monologue, in which one person dispenses to a ready vessel. Lee obviously specialised in the second format. I prefer discussions. So I'm happy to have folks critique my ideas. And I'm trying to critique those of LSM.
This thread grew out of another on Full Time Training, whether to attend or not. My comment was, and remains, "Who would want to be trained by this group?" I pointed out the pressure for outward conformity, and noted what I perceived as a strong cultural component. Everyone must be exactly identical, with no differences whatsoever. There are words on paper, which mask a spirit. Always. The question is, are these words from God or not? From whence this spirit comes? I say, China, not heaven. The earth has rebelled against God, including China. Lee taught us that China was "virgin soil". It was not so virginous as he supposed.
Now, we get into problem #2. Satan would love for USA and China to fight. Or Belgium and Germany or whatnot. God has given His sinless Son as Saviour of the world, and we all should submit. But if one sinner tries to get another to submit to him, I'm calling it out. But not, hopefully, in the way of a fight. Just simply saying, "This is not of God."
StG,
Drake says he doesn't want to talk about bugs, only lampstands. So humour me for a minute and let me talk about bugs. There's all different kinds, but from one Creator. God doesn't mind variety. "The heavens declare the glory of God" says Psalm 19. But star differs from star in glory (1 Cor 15:41). Yet they all have the same purpose!! So why impose uniformity? Does that make any sense?
Basketball teams have the same purpose. But the Center is tall and lean, the Power Forward is thick and "powerful", and the guard is small and speedy. Yet Lee tried to push for conformity. To what? To his culturally-mediated perceptions. So he put out pseudo-spiritual words, but eventually, if you stuck around, you found out what was behind those words.
I don't know if you know the story of Bill Mallon and Ray Graver. Bill was trying to manage various locales in the Southeast USA, and "the office" aka Philip Lee was pushing non-biblical and non-spiritual rubbish on them. People were discouraged. "Life" was at a low ebb. "Enjoyment" was dissipating rapidly. Bill mentioned this to travelling minsitry enforcer Ray, who replied, "We do what we are told." Eventually, you find out what spirit is behind the words. As did Godfred Otuteye and the Lee-appointed elders in Anaheim, as did others. You eventually find out what nature, shape and form of spirit you're really dealing with, whether it is of heaven or no.
So in some sense
Drake and I are talking past each other, yes. He's fixated upon the appearance of words on paper, what they might seem to mean (gold meaning divine nature) and I'm pointing to the reality of what happens on the ground if you let this spirit in.
This is why I keep pointing to what happens. Let's say the supposed Oracle of God makes an exegetical faux pas (I've specifically noted several, on this thread). Or this year's interpretation is diametrically opposed to last year's, because apparently the Mota needs something different today. Everyone in the audience sits quiety. Because LC (Chinese) culture dictates "you don't make the Mota lose face publicly". So you accept poor teachings (or at least questionable) and 'life' goes on. Apparently the "flow" from Lee's throne has changed, and you try to make do in your LC "church life". But your conscience is damaged.
So I'm trying to publicly think here - an ugly sight yes I know - in the hopes people might realize that Witness Lee wasn't the only person on earth with a brain. We can all think what these words mean. And to the topic, my counsel has been to avoid "training" that doesn't allow some freedom to accept other sources. There is a marketplace of ideas out there. Watchman Nee sourced them. Can't we, also? This goes for the LC and any other cloistered sect (LDS, JW &c). The LC has how many hundreds of full time recruiters on college campuses around the world, trying to convince naive teen-agers to go get trained by their "ministry". . . I'm pointing to the spirit behind this. A spirit of corrosion and control. I say, resist and reject it. Think for yourself and this spirit will go away.
Sorry for my ability to be short, quick, and to the point. I like talking about stars, angels and bugs. (not in that order, though). Thanks be to God for a format to freely discuss such things publicly.