[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

OK so a better verse relating to salvation is:

Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Two conditions for salvation:
1) confession - that's a work
2) belief in the heart, that without 1) is only dead faith


Faith Without Works Is Dead - What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2:14-26

It doesn't matter if the faith is for healing, salvation, or walking on water. It's just faith, and without some sort of corresponding expression, it's dead.

In order to correctly interpret scripture and use it for your argument, Evangelical, you have to first do proper exegesis rather than isolating a verse and making an entire argument from it like you have been doing consistently.

Luke 6:45

"for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks."

You see, faith first takes place in the heart then precedes to come from the mouth.

Faith always precedes good works. In the same way salvation comes first, then good works flow from that as evidence of faith.

In Hebrews 11, Paul relates faith and works in the life of Abraham and others. It says by faith, Abraham offered Isaac. This is what faith is. Faith is belief with some sort of expression.

Even Luther and Calvin known for "saved by faith alone" did not believe in dead faith.

“We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.” ~ Martin Luther.

Anyone can do works but does that mean they have faith in Jesus Christ? The pharisees too had faith and works. They were known for doing works in God's name, even crossing distant lands to gain converts, but did that result in their salvation?

If it is as you say that Paul means a future thing in heaven, then it means salvation (i.e. forgiveness of sins) is a future, not present, reality.

That's what you assume, but it's not what scripture says.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. (Romans 8:18)

The idea of "gaining Christ " is very much related to being "found in Him", and knowing God and being known by Him in Galatians 4:8 and Galatians 4:9. Verse 8 says "you did not know God" and verse 9 says "now that you know God". So clearly it is a present tense idea.

The mistake you make is equating "gaining Christ" as Paul says in Philippians to "gaining salvation". There is no scriptural basis for this argument.

If you think you have to continue "gaining" Christ by works such as mysticism through chanting, praying, or reading scripture and then equating this to "gaining salvation" then you have a faith cloaked in a works based salvation.

What you say is possible however it is mostly your speculation, and my view is based on the Scripture Psalm 41:9 and the fact that the Psalm was fulfilled.

This psalm describes a close friend turning away or betraying David. It related to Ahithophel, an esteemed and cherished friend and trusted advisor of David (2 Sam. 16:23), who had a relationship with David similar to David's relationship with Jonathan. Ahithophel conspired with Absalom against David and took a leading role in the revolt of David's son Absalom. Ahithophel did this to David out of revenge for what David did to Bathsheba (Bathsheba was a relative). It is reasonable to assume that up until the time David sinned with Bathsheba, Ahithophel was a loyal and loving friend rather than someone who never loved him.

This actually would be speculation.

Now we can see why Jesus and Judas fulfilled this Psalm. Because Judas was an esteemed and cherished friend of Christ. Christ would not have entrusted him with the responsibility of holding the money if he wasn't.

I have no issue with Jesus having considered Judas a friend and having trusted him. But that does not mean that Judas held the same sentiments toward Jesus.