[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

When you say "Jesus Christ doesn't come to you through works" I think you are putting conditions on how Christ comes to people. Usually some kind of work precedes the faith (such as praying, or reading the Bible, or attending an evangelical crusade).

For example the woman who was healed by touching His garment - her work was to touch Jesus's garment, it was a work on her part, and Jesus came to her. That woman might say to you "you are wrong, Jesus did not come to me when I had faith in him, but after I touched his garment".

Also consider Judas, he had faith in Christ, he was a disciple, but he did not gain him. He exchanged Christ for silver. Silver was his gain.

You could pray all your life or memorize the bible but salvation will never come through these things otherwise the Pharisees would have had nothing to worry about.

The error in your argument is that you're trying to tie this all in by equating a Christian (regenerated believer with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) to a women that was not yet have received the Holy Spirit. The spirit was not yet given because Christ hasn't yet ascended at that point in time.

She wouldn't have touched Christ's garment unless she had faith that it would heal her. Her faith preceded her action. We know this because before she even touched him she said "If I only touch His clothes, I will be healed" (Mark 5:28). Even then, this account of healing does not in any way equate to salvation.

A born again Christian already has the Holy Spirit. You do not need to regain Christ over and over by mysticism or any other means as if he is off a short distance as he was in the eyes of that women.

Actually when I wrote about demons, I was thinking more of Judas Iscariot who Christ called "a devil", but I have tried to think about this from the perspective of a spiritual being.

"Type of belief" - how many types of belief are there? I think there is only belief, and unbelief. We either believe, or we don't. I can't say, I "50% believe in Christ and 50% don't". I can't say "my belief is of an apple type and yours is of an orange type". It's just common sense really. Of course, demons don't "believe in Christ" as their savior, they cannot, but as spiritual beings in the spiritual world they probably have met Christ face to face more than some Christians. They believe in Him as Lord because they must do what He says, but not Savior.

Take a look into the Greek. The words for the belief of the demons and the faith available to us have a totally different meanings. You're making an assumption in your argument and equating them in the verses you gave earlier.

It gets tricky because we could go around in circles about whether he was a genuine believer, or had genuine faith, and could even get into Calvinism vs Arminianism and the gnostic gospels. We just can't know for sure what was in Judas's heart from the time Christ chose him to the time he betrayed Christ. Arguments have been made anywhere from Judas being the devil incarnate , to him being a Christian in "name only", to a full and genuine disciple of Christ who let his guard down and suffered the consequences.

Sure you can, you yourself gave the prophesy of Psalms 41:9. If we can't know for sure, how did David know his heart fourteen generations before hand?

The evidence to justify my belief is that he followed Christ because Christ chose Him. That's why I think he had belief. Why would Christ choose a non-believer to follow him - he wouldn't be a true disciple. To accomplish His plan, Jesus needed 12 true disciples, and one who would betray him. Not 11 true disciples and a fraud.

The Old testament indicates that Judas was Jesus's close friend:

Psalm 41:9 Even my close friend, someone I trusted, one who shared my bread, has turned against me.

So I think Judas being a true disciple fits Psalm 41:9 better than him being the devil incarnate.

Even though he was a thief, they were all sinners, tax collectors etc, yet did not betray Christ. I don't think it was because he was a thief, but because he loved money.

I see Judas as a believer, a close friend of Christ, who stayed with Christ to gain money, not to gain Him. Whether he gained Christ or not determined his eternal fate.

To fulfill scripture. But the real question is, why did Judas choose to go along with Jesus? We don't have evidence of Judas doing any good works to show his intention in following Jesus were good, but we do have accounts that record his bad deeds showing his intentions to being one of the twelve were opportunistic in nature.

Judas followed along with Christ but this is not sufficient evidence he trusted or had faith in him. Or just because Jesus loved Judas doesn't mean Judas loved him back.