Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S
If you are needing mystical practices in order to gain Christ, you're gaining a different Christ. Jesus Christ doesn't come to you through works. He's gained the moment you have faith in him.
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When you say "Jesus Christ doesn't come to you through works" I think you are putting conditions on how Christ comes to people. Usually some kind of work precedes the faith (such as praying, or reading the Bible, or attending an evangelical crusade).
For example the woman who was healed by touching His garment - her work was to touch Jesus's garment, it was a work on her part, and Jesus came to her. That woman might say to you "you are wrong, Jesus did not come to me when I had faith in him, but after I touched his garment".
Also consider Judas, he had faith in Christ, he was a disciple, but he did not gain him. He exchanged Christ for silver. Silver was his gain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S
Demons are unredeemable, they're already judged by God. To equate the type of belief demons have toward Christ to faith available to people is just wrong and also bad hermeneutics.
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Actually when I wrote about demons, I was thinking more of Judas Iscariot who Christ called "a devil", but I have tried to think about this from the perspective of a spiritual being.
"Type of belief" - how many types of belief are there? I think there is only belief, and unbelief. We either believe, or we don't. I can't say, I "50% believe in Christ and 50% don't". I can't say "my belief is of an apple type and yours is of an orange type". It's just common sense really. Of course, demons don't "believe in Christ" as their savior, they cannot, but as spiritual beings in the spiritual world they probably have met Christ face to face more than some Christians. They believe in Him as Lord because they must do what He says, but not Savior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S
What would be your evidence to justify the belief that Judas actually had faith in Christ? Is your reasoning because he was following him around? How then do you explain the part where Judas betrayed him? That's evidence against the idea that Judas had faith in Jesus. What I read is that he was a thief and liked to take from the money bag. He followed Christ because he was an opportunist and just like any wolf in sheep's clothing they perceive kindness and humility as weakness and take advantage of that.
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It gets tricky because we could go around in circles about whether he was a genuine believer, or had genuine faith, and could even get into Calvinism vs Arminianism and the gnostic gospels. We just can't know for sure what was in Judas's heart from the time Christ chose him to the time he betrayed Christ. Arguments have been made anywhere from Judas being the devil incarnate , to him being a Christian in "name only", to a full and genuine disciple of Christ who let his guard down and suffered the consequences.
The evidence to justify my belief is that he followed Christ because Christ chose Him. That's why I think he had belief. Why would Christ choose a non-believer to follow him - he wouldn't be a true disciple. To accomplish His plan, Jesus needed 12 true disciples, and one who would betray him. Not 11 true disciples and a fraud.
The Old testament indicates that Judas was Jesus's close friend:
Psalm 41:9 Even my close friend, someone I trusted, one who shared my bread, has turned against me.
So I think Judas being a true disciple fits Psalm 41:9 better than him being the devil incarnate.
Even though he was a thief, they were
all sinners, tax collectors etc, yet did not betray Christ. I don't think it was because he was a thief, but because he loved money.
I see Judas as a believer, a close friend of Christ, who had his shortcomings as a thief (as they all did), who probably did believe in and love Christ (he regretted, at the end), but unfortunately loved money more. It is hard for me to believe that Judas stayed with the disciples because of the money, I hardly think it would have been a profitable venture. It seems that whether he gained Christ or not determined his eternal fate.