[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I accept that, although some are, I believe. There is a Catholic forum discussion topic I found regarding whether the Navigators group is for or against Catholics. They conclude the latter not because of any clear statement from the Navigators but by inference from their stated belief in sola-scriptura. When these groups use the term "Christian community" they clearly are referring to only one particular branch of Christianity - evangelicalism.

As leastofthese incorrectly remarked "These groups are not about growing a local church or a denomination - they're about growing the Body".

To be strictly correct, "they're about growing Evangelicalism" which is a crossdenominational movement within Protestant Christianity . So clearly, they are about growing particular denominations and particular local churches which are part of that denominational flavor. Evangelicalism is but one of a number of movements including pentecostalism, Catholicism, etc and these groups clearly do not consider the whole Body of Christ.

I am aware that these groups will from time to time, hire the facilities belonging to a particular denomination in order to carry out some sort of service. For example, they might utilize a local baptist or Presbyterian church for the purpose of conducting a special service or talk from a local or invited guest. Why they did not utilize the facilitates of a Catholic church? Partly because they are not comfortable holding a meeting in the presence of Mary and other idols, but mostly because of some denominational affiliation and connection with these local churches. I really do not see the difference between this practice and the practice of the local churches in welcoming students to the Sunday meeting at the meeting hall or home group fellowships.

You don't? What you're describing with an evangelical group using a particular denomination's facilities to further their efforts, involves two different groups of people. CoC leaders are either employed by the local church or they're members of the local church that are volunteering their time. How is that the same as one group hiring out the facilities of another group that they're comfortable with? The local church owns the property that CoC uses. That's not the same as an evangelical group (which in general, focuses on preaching the gospel to all Protestant groups/churches that believe in justification by faith) using a church facilities that they're comfortable with- come on! Churches want to gain members- evangelical groups do not, unless you count the ones that want to join the movement- but that is on a much smaller scale than the amount of people in churches and every churches need to have a relatively healthy amount of members. Your statement about evangelicals wanting to grow certain denominations may be slightly true due to some denominations being more sectarian than others or having bad practices or reputations- but it's still vastly more inclusive than the local church's idea of "growing the Body" and they will generally be willing to preach in any Protestant church. Aside from "fundi" sectarian groups that are by nature unhealthy and probably wouldn't welcome them , the only group Evangelical's don't work with are Catholics and that is because unfortunately, Catholic doctrine is blatantly against the "saved by grace" doctrine. That doesn't mean there aren't Christians there that have been saved on their own accord, but clearly evangelicals believe in "saved by grace" and that contradicts the Catholic Churches teaching. Still, I believe many evangelical preachers (at least my great grandpa) would go there and preach the gospel given the chance-ha!! Do you really think the local church would just let an evangelist come in and "do his thing" for a meeting? I hope they would! I have to admit, given over 20 years in that group- I've never seen it, heard of it, and have to say I'm doubtful it would happen. Even if it did, I'm sure there would be disapproval, if not consequences, from the blending brothers in Anaheim and LSM.

Have to point out too that while you can say technically that all these are "movements," -I'm sure you know evangelism is the only movement that isn't it's own church or its own denomination. The Catholic church views itself as the "one true church" and Pentecostalism resulted in the Pentecostal denomination. You said that Evangelism, Pentecostalism, and Catholicism clearly don't consider the whole body of Christ? Wow. I hope you're meaning (1)they're not interested in seeing any other part of the body of Christ grow (aside from their flavor) and not that (2)they don't recognize other Christians as part of the Body of Christ. If it's the first, then the local church has to be the MOST guilty of the ones you listed, given their size and practices in comparison to the others! By your logic, when evangelicals want the body of Christ to grow it would include all Protestants denominations they "prefer" (still a lot!). For the Pentecostals, its would include all their splintering denominations. For the LC, you're talking about growing one pinkie toe (in comparison to the other groups) of the body of Christ. The LC isn't interested in investing any time with people without the desire that they would become part of the local church. It's an understandable wish for all denominations and sects! I'm just making the point that if you meant those three groups you listed didn't "consider the whole body of Christ" when furthering their efforts, then the local church would be the most guilty considering their strict recruitment styles and expectations of members. How many times have I heard, "they're not good material for the Body." Really? The body of what? The local church body or the body of Christ? However, if you meant the 2nd thats a pretty extreme statement. I hope its not and I'm truly trying to help you at this point. I'm no expert but you need to hear this-even from me! You're right about Catholics not representing (or recognizing) the whole body of Christ but that is bc of their doctrine (as I mentioned above). Pentecostals recognize anyone who is "born again" as a member of the body of Christ (at least mainstream/non-sectarian ones do!). As far as the Evangelical movement, they will be in any church preaching that sinners are saved by grace, through faith, by Jesus Christ- who died on the cross as a ransom for our sins. They stick to the basics! They also recognize the entire body of Christ as those who are "born again" (even the ones in the Catholic church who are saved in spite of wrong doctrine) and your reasoning for their "preference" of where they might like to preach or what facilities in what denominations they may use as a proof that they don't "consider the whole body of Christ" is awful! There is no logic there- you're using imagined preference that ALL evangelicals MUST have (according to you) on where they're most comfortable preaching and using that as proof that they "clearly do not consider the whole Body of Christ?" Even with that tainted logic- explain what you mean by "consider" or you'll get all the above questioning someone would have to do to even try to begin to understand the multiple possibilities of the point you're trying to make.

Sorry, I know I'm giving you are hard time. I appreciate your strong stance on it but you need to make a better argument. I think I'm following you but if I'm not missing anything- you're so very much OFF, with all due respect.

I just want to make sure I'm understanding your argument. Your last paragraph is to justify what? It looks like (although I don't know why you're trying to justify this non-issue) that you're trying to validate that the local churches welcome students from CoC to the Sunday meeting at the meeting hall or people's homes and that it's ok that they want to "grow the body of Christ" by having CoC recruit college kids? Well, I don't really have a problem with this at all, bc the LC and CoC are the same people! What difference does it make? A CoC member inviting you to a meeting is still a local church member inviting you to one! The issue people have is that they separate themselves intentionally from the LC (due to it's bad reputation), and engage in a common cult recruitment tactic- creating a different name for themselves than the one of the group they actually work for. Once, they've hooked you and relationships are formed, they'll let you know about their affiliation with the LC, once you're in too deep to leave (their hope!). Obviously, their goal is to increase the members in the local church, like other groups, and that would be fine... except, it's a problem of HOW they're doing it, not the fact that they're doing it! Just be upfront about who you are and stop using deceitful recruiting practices and people wouldn't have such a problem with CoC bc it would be called something affiliated with their real name or their real name.

But the real issue (if I'm understanding correctly) is that you're trying to correct LeastofThese comment about how evangelical groups want to increase the WHOLE body of Christ and CoC doesn't. To prove his statement wrong, you're comparing how evangelical's (the LC in comparison) use the facilities of the denominations they prefer (the CoC house in comparison) and when the local church members invite students from CoC to the meetings to help "increase the Body" that it's the same as an evangelical group going to a denomination of their choice to preach the gospel and "increase the body."

Am I understanding correctly?