Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy
SC,
I still don't see how someone could sin without in some sense being deceived.
But look at it another way. If Adam wasn't deceived then his disobedience was the most willful of sins. The Bible definitely tells us that to sin knowing what we are doing is worse that to sin not knowing. ("Father forgive them for they know not what they do." The import is if they did know what they were doing then forgiveness might be harder to come by because the sin is worse.)
The verse in 1 Tim 2 is clearly saying that Adam was a superior leader because he was not deceived. But the Bible makes clear that if you are morally clear about what is going on and still choose to sin you are worse than one who is not clear. So if that's the case, how could Adam be the superior leader, since he would be less moral that Eve for sinning more willfully?
But, regardless, if Adam was not deceived in the way you mean that means he was fully clear, with no fallacious thought in his head. But in order to sin one must at some level assume fallacious thoughts, one must at the very least deceive oneself. Again I don't see how you can both not be deceived and also sin, because at some level you are believing a lie when you sin.
BTW, read The Message version of those verses in 1 Tim 2. It reads, "Eve was deceived first..." as I wrote earlier.
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Hi Igzy,
Why do you believe that one has to be deceived in order to sin? Are you thinking that no one would want to sin against God, and so if they did it would have to mean they were fooled or tricked into doing so? This does seem logical.
However, maybe one can sin without being deceived. I think I have a possible example: wanting something that isn't yours (coveting) (as Satan did when he coveted God's place). You don't have to be deceived to decide you want something that isn't yours.
Maybe we could say that Satan was self-deceived to believe he could actually take God's place. In the same way Adam could have become self-deceived.
In 1 Tim 2:14 the word "deceived" means "seduced." For someone to be deceived or seduced means another party is involved and to blame for what happens. So, Eve was clearly seduced by Satan; whereas, since the Bible plainly says Adam was not deceived (seduced by another), thus Adam could have sinned out of self-deception like the devil did.
Just a thought.
Thankful Jane