Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake
ZNP,
It is possible that we agree on more than is apparent not just here in this note but elsewhere. However, I have learned to wait until I hear the whole argument because more often than not what sounds like agreement is quickly followed by Brother bashing at which point I realize I cannot agree with that even if I might agree on some points.Drake
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A complete overview of the argument --
Inherent in the "Ground of the Church" doctrine is that there is a proper ground on which the church is built and stands and that once the church is careless in not being on that proper ground they have lost their standing. The analogy is what happens if you build your house on the property line.
This proper ground is emphasized and reiterated several times in the OT. The temple can only be built on a very particular ground. The same ground where Abraham offered up Isaac in a figure and the same ground purchased by David as a peace offering for his sin in numbering the people contrary to the express command of God.
The Temple is stated clearly in the NT to be a type of the church. The church is very clearly described as a building from the very first. Therefore this principle of the church needing to be on the proper ground applies.
Up to this point I fully agree with WL and WN's teaching.
So then, what is the ground on which the church is to be built? Where is the line that we cannot cross without being equated to that person who build their house on the property line?
I find the approach of WN and WL to this critical question highly objectionable. You lay the groundwork from the OT and matters of righteousness that this is an essential item of the faith, an item once for all delivered to the saints in the fellowship of the apostles, and then provide an inferential teaching rather than one that is spelled out in black and white.
Whether or not you agree with inferring from two verses in separate parts of the NT that "appointing elders in every church" and "appointing elders in every city" applies to this doctrine, to me that is wholly unsatisfactory. I am not willing to condemn 99.99% of all Christian meetings based on this.
As a result this thread was started by me with the intention of examining what exactly is "the boundary of the Local Church"?
Evangelical has proposed several different criteria and I applaud him for doing that. He says there must be a minimum number, 12, for a meeting to be considered a church meeting. He provides a "logical" argument for that since there were 12 apostles. However, I find that argument without merit in the NT, or even in the ministry of WL who used Lazarus, Mary, Martha and Jesus as the model for the church. Evangelical suggested that you have to be able to have a Lord's table meeting to be a church. I agree with that, but find no compelling reason why a meeting of two or three could not have the Lord's table. Evangelical said that a meeting is not a church meeting until it has elders, but the verse he uses to support this position destroys it "appoint elders in every church". This shows the meetings were considered church meetings prior to having elders appointed.
I also have proposed criteria from the NT: Matthew 18.
In brief, "wherever two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in their midst".
I think there is a lot of meaning implied in the term "in My name" and that the context of Matthew 18 clarifies this. But at the same time there is a simplicity that is all inclusive and justifies rather than condemns.
This cannot simply be words since Jesus in this very same book has said that there will be many who said "Lord, lord" yet will be condemned. Matt 18 provides proofs and evidence that a meeting is truly "in the name of Jesus".
1. What they bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven
2. What they loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven.
From the context "bound in Heaven" and "loosed in Heaven" refers to "tell it to the church" (the kingdom of heaven). As a result you can see that this gathering of 2 or 3 (bare minimum) is fully one with "the church", "the kingdom of Heaven" representing all believers.
3. Whatever they ask shall be done for them.
These three things are given as proof of the Lord's presence:
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.