Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy
The NT Testament only gives two solid validations of an Apostle.
- They were closely associated with Jesus while he was here, or with somebody who was.
- They could work miracles. (I don't see how you can explain away 2 Cor 12:12.)
The problem with conferring apostleship without those proofs is that it potentially puts far too much power in the hands of unqualified people. As I said, the Church needs more evidence than someone's claim of having an impressive ministry and of having planted churches. Nothing wrong with those things. They are good. But they don't make someone an Apostle in the sense of having God-given extra-local authority. |
Thanks Igzy for sharing your views. Though I do not agree with them I appreciate the opportunity to lay out an alternative viewpoint on this topic.
I’ve already addressed your previous assertion that apostles were those who were with the Lord during his earthly ministry. We saw that that is not accurate according to the New Testament record because many of the apostles were given as gifts by the Lord Himself in His ascension and Paul lists several of them by name as indicated in my previous post. Timothy, for instance, was not even circumcised and may have even been too young to be part of the Lord Jesus’s ministry on earth. In your revised point #1 above you say apostles were associated with somebody who was associated with Jesus during his earthly ministry but that is also inaccurate according to the New Testament record because the apostle Paul only came to know the Lord after His ascension. So those apostles affiliated with Paul’s ministry, and mentioned by Paul in his letters were associated with an apostle (Paul) who was not part of the Lords earthly ministry.
But the main purpose of this post is to address your second assertion concerning the evidence of apostleship being miracles and wonders and works of power according to second Corinthian‘s 12:12. Here is why your assumption that evidence of apostleship is validated by those things is incorrect.
First, the apostle Paul said of those things that he performed them because the Corinthians compelled him to prove his apostleship. The Corinthian‘s were questioning his apostleship as compared to the other “super-apostles”. In verse 11, Paul said that he became foolish because they compelled him to prove his apostleship by those very things. He was well pleased in weaknesses, and insults, in necessities, in persecutions, distresses, on behalf of Christ, for when he was weak then he was powerful. Yet the Corinthian‘s wanted some evidence according to the manifestations of the “super apostles“, these works of power, signs, and wonders. Rather than signs and wonders and works of power being proof of apostleship, Paul said to the Corinthian‘s that their request forced him to become foolish and compelled him to perform them but, the real proof of apostleship was that His grace is sufficient and His power is perfected in weakness. This is confirmed again by Paul‘s word in the next chapter, chapter 13, verse three, where he says of them that they seek a proof of the Christ who was speaking in them, and yet his apostleship should have been validated in their mind by the fact that though he was speaking to them in weakness, yet, at the very same time Christ was speaking in them powerfully. That mutual speaking of the speaker, Paul, speaking in weakness, while He also spoke in power in them, is the real proof of apostleship according to the apostle Paul’s persuasive argument to the Corinthians.
However, if someone absolutely insists that the works of power, signs, miracles, etc. are the proof of apostleship, then by the same standard believers must prove they are believers by signs such as casting out demons, speaking with new tongues, picking up serpents, drinking deadly things without harm and laying hands on the sick, for they too, using that same logic, are the signs that follow a bonafide believer. Of course, no one that I know would demand proof that someone is a believer by asking them to drink poison, pick up venomous snakes, or by any of the other items listed. In the same way though signs, wonders, miracles may be manifested in certain situations, those things are not the proof of apostleship, anymore than the things listed in Mark 16:17-18 are proof points that someone is a believer..... or not.
Thanks
Drake