[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Terry

Problem is FTTA creates an environment where young people don't want to stick around if FTTA isn't a goal.

I've suspected this and am concerned for some family members who have gone and one who is about to go back to the FTT. The last training I went to in Anaheim they had a "fellowship" time between breaks. I've been in sales and they were being pitched. I went with a family member to this "fellowship" during the break. They did end up going but were on the fence at the time. There were several people speaking and there was definitely an emotional pull, they hype it up with former trainees talking about how wonderful it was, talk about it being the "highest way." I saw that they were giving somewhat of a sales pitch, but it still worked! I sort of felt disappointed when I left that I couldn't go! They're good!! They did say something like, "but don't come if you're wanting to FIX your life and make sure it's what YOU want." But just the issue of being "sold" on something under the mask of "fellowship" is deceiving. I don't think they realize (I hope they don't) how serious that is- these decisions effect lives for generations, they can separate family, prevent further education. I didn't have a relationship with that family member for 2 years other than a few phone calls/emails/maybe one or two visits. They're in such a spiritual bubble, all they could talk about was what they "enjoyed" in their classes. This isn't just a Bible School, it's thought reform school. It created a mindset where they are alienated from anyone who isn't being "reformed" and creates a disconnect and the illusion that they are now "enlightened" and you aren't. That's when I'm seeing the spiritual eliteness set in. Our relationship really suffered. They would have had no idea how to respond to what was going on in my life at the time so I didn't tell them about it. It was like we were on two totally different planets. Their personality totally changed. Not their relationship with Jesus, their actual personality. I'm not saying they didn't grow in their relationship with Jesus, but I feel like the mind narrowing environment has to limit Him. I've read about thought reform and how people in these groups subconsciously take on a "cult persona." That's why they end up using the same verbage and intonations and look like clones of each other. It's not emotionally healthy. The same thing happens with leading brothers though and they think it's ok to encourage these kids to come. I wonder how many of them could actually recognize a thought reform technique and then, realize that these techniques cross spiritual boundaries with influencing people. Most spiritual abuse occurs from people who don't realize they're doling it out on people. When reading about it, I came across a list of about 20 something thought reform techniques and recognized around 2/3 of them practiced in the training. I think it's important to remember that in and of themselves, they're not all bad. It's the combination of them, number, and degrees in which they're used that creates thought reform (AKA brainwashing). The list included things like uniforms, strict schedules, shared living quarters, high teaching/big words, public testing of ones knowledge/public repetitive reciting of teachings, the us vs. them mentality, the idea that they are "set apart" and "above" other groups, a common shared goal involving much personal sacrifice, limiting family/friends outside the group, repetitive memorizing/speaking, benign rules, many of them though, that create an environment without questioning, reducing personal experiences that are "natural" and focusing on the "spiritual" (that one is a big one- being in your Spirit is not always their SPIRIT), its just the "flow" of repetitive "one-ness" and "flow" of the group. To speak out or question is automatically abhorrent, no matter the issue, because it's against the flow. There's a reverence to the leading ones where they are not accountable and with no path to question them, yet the people under their control are held to the strictest levels of accountability. Group think reigns in the "corporate" environment. There are many more but my point is- it took me a long time to realize that even if the teaching WAS spot on, the environment is a thought reform model and it's not acceptable!! These are methods that have been used in communist and suppressive governments and also in cults. These methods, maybe aside from a uniform and living quarters- which is just practical, shouldn't be used in a Christian Bible school. Christ can change our thoughts without thought reform tactics. But you can change the way a person thinks, especially at that age. I just see through it and wish more people did. If more people knew how it actually is, maybe they would think twice about going or discourage their family from going....

These tactics scare me because right now, there seems to be a big push to migrate to Europe. I know some older people who have actually moved there and more that are visiting often. Even the "blending trips" once every 2 years have been in other countries. I have an underlying feeling some of my family will so this topic hits a nerve with me. I just hope it helps anyone reading to realize how much they are influencing the people there. Most of us would agree, Jesus works on us differently and at different paces and times. Also, the "corporate" mentality there only LIMITS individual growth in Christ. It's very widely accepted outside of the LC that much INDIVIDUAL time in the word and prayer is needed- the FTT is the opposite! Not to mention, the schedule they have to keep just limits creativity and natural relationships in your life. Which of course, according to Lee- you shouldn't have "natural" relationships- this idea is crazy to me. The point is, the FTT is very systematic. How is this expressing Christ? It's so obvious to me this is how the Pharisees lived. If you really wanted to teach people the Bible, give them a study Bible and have them do it on their own time. I heard they had an online training now. I think that's more directed towards parents or people with careers though. Why can't the 20 somethings do that? Oh yeah, you'd probably lose some of the thought reform effectiveness. I apologize if I sound bitter, I'm obviously anti-FTT/LSM and hate seeing my family so involved with them. I just don't know why people count on this system to study the Bible. I'm sure there is library in their city they could go to every day!!

Sorry for going on but I really agree with you that the FTT wants full-timers, that's their goal. I think something that helps in that goal is that many of these people in FTT are so eager to get married after 2 years of little communication (always supervised) with the opposite sex that getting married and going full time seems like the "natural path" that's laid for them after graduating. Marriage feels like it becomes an increasingly big "idol" for them. Marriage is hard and there's a lot to deal with combining lives, etc. so it's just easier to be a full-timer since they're already trained in doing that. Taking on marriage and finding a career -yikes! My point is, the path of a full-timer is a much easier transition (in the beginning) for the trainees. And let's be honest, they just want to get married. Many end up marrying people from the FTT, but they don't really know each other and they fall in love with the "idea" of that person. There's also the hype of "waiting" and figuring out who is "spoken for." It can EASILY become the "ultimate goal," especially for the women. Now, I haven't been to the FTT but my family has and many friends. I've talked to them about all this and even in the LC, I have friends who agree this is an issue. In summary, its just not a healthy environment to emotionally grow and mature.

I just think these kids stay "kids" in and after the FTT because they lack real experiences in the world that naturally encourage healthy emotional growth. They are stuck in a system where they have to "ask" permission for too many things. I think getting married being probably the most important one but they don't learn to rely on their own feelings enough when they're in this lifestyle. There has to be a balance. They come out different people that struggle in society and are EXTREMELY SUSCEPTIBLE to suggestion. Many DO end up moving and going "full-time" because it's just easier! But right ahead for them, there's pressure to live up to a standard that is really unrealistic (I think we've all seen that). The way you dress, decorate your home, your entertainment, even how you plan your wedding is all so strangely similar among the people in the LC. I actually am at the point of dreading weddings of people in the LC. Luckily, my friends and family are a little older now so it's not as common. The "meeting wedding" is what usually happens and I know it's not always what people want to do. I have a friend who wanted dancing and was basically told that would be a very "low" thing to do. I know her and it would have probably been extremely PG and songs picked very carefully. But it was strongly discouraged. She didn't even want alcohol, just a fun reception. She ended up being so frustrated with the whole thing that she just did it in someone's home, with 20 people. It wasn't a "meeting wedding" but I guess it was considered acceptable. Those that dare to have something different actually feel guilty on some level. It's an "unspoken rule" to follow the LC wedding standard. Even for one of my family members weddings, they had a more normal wedding, but did give their "testimonies" in front of everyone. Obviously, I love my family and I'm happy that they are happy with the way they met, courted, gave each other back to the Lord, waited for years, fellowshipped with other people, saved themselves for marriage, and then- when everyone gave the "OK" they got married. I feel like it's just one example of how these 20 something adults can't do anything without "fellowship" or really, permission. And when they finally do it, the need to over explain how they did it the "right" way and now they're very "blessed" is too much. It's ok to just say, "We love the Lord, each other, and feel he brought us together." It was like this whole subliminal "perfect" example of how to do things as a young adult in the church life. It was explained to everyone at the wedding for at least 30 minutes, if not more. That, and their wedding website with their testimonies was just too much. As happy as I was for them, I know myself and a couple of my friends were like, "well, we can't all be perfect!" And the thing is, their "story" was just a LITTLE focused more on "giving the other person to the Lord" than I felt like what was actually going on. I don't know, but I think they both knew before the training that they would get back together. They followed the unspoken rules though and did have a great "example" to talk about- and they did. I'm saying all this not to knock on my family because it's not their fault they've eventually given in subconsciously to the pressure. But seeing it from the outside, I can see how their behavior meets their need to be "right" but that is really just creates more pressure in the LC lifestyle to do things a "certain way." The guilt/shame of going against the wind just reinforces a very unrealistic standard. There's little "breaking the mold." I feel like people reading can probably relate- the weddings and way to get married is all an unspoken system. It's just the "way" to do it in the LC. Some people can fall in line, a lot of them can't and just have to see this "standard" that is unrealistic. For myself, it creates not only pressure but guilt/shame for not being able to be this standard. Of course, we all want to do things the "right" way and maybe that was the right way for them, but the marriage "unspoken rules" are just part of the "path" that is laid out for anyone in the LC, and ESPECIALLY the trainees. Can you imagine the reaction if two trainees eloped to Vegas or Mexico??? It would almost be labelled a SIN. But, its not. It's their lives, they can elope and do whatever they want. Just the SHOCK of someone even doing that though shows what a SYSTEM they are in.

I'm not meaning to write so much, I apologize. I obviously feel strongly about this issue. The biggest issue for me (as annoying as the wedding stuff is) is the pressure to move to college towns being a full-timer. I know of several women who were in the training that ended up moving to these random towns, raising kids, are married to full-timers, several of them have little to no work experience and they aren't happy. Some have made friends and made the best of it (I feel like they still wonder "what if?") but most of their extended families don't see them regularly. THIS is what is happening. I know at least two who are suffering from depression and would probably do it over differently if given the chance. I know a few people in and out of the LC who have moved to another country and I don't think they're preparing people for the culture shock of this enormous decision!! Depression is a normal occurrence with moving to another country. Just getting acclimated and learning a language, being totally isolated from everything you know- is extremely hard on people. Not to mention, your support system is no longer your family, it's the church. I just don't like seeing people being exploited (in my opinion), and I think they're convincing people to live a life after thought reform tactics are used on them and it's just unfair. There are people in Europe that can take care of Europe, right? Why is it the job now of the local church (especially since reading the LC's in the US are down to 300 churches with just 25K members after 4 decades) to send people to Europe for the "Lord's move." The problem is, if you know anything about business or sales (I don't know much but it doesn't take an expert to see) you can recognize that in order to sell something, you must create passion/excitement. There's this exciting thing available and now, you're made to feel like you're "missing out" if you don't "buy in." Combine that with some thought reform tactics on someone in their early 20's, separate them from their family, have their years "wasted" in service to the LC when they could be getting a better education, give them some responsibilities and "burdens to carry" to create pressure not to leave, stroke their ego's every now and again, by then they'll have kids so all the pressure is on the husband to continue on this path(many full timers wives are stay at home moms who might do "service" in the local church office- nothing wrong with that, just how it is), create a desperate need (right now it's Europe. Syrian refugees salvation is now LC responsibility apparently) and tell everyone that the churches must be "built up" in Europe- or the Lord won't return (common goal created). This creates hype, the feeling of being in a group, the feeling of being part of a higher purpose bigger than yourself. Now these can all be great things, but what is the cost of this? Leaving your family? Can you honestly look at this situation and flip it- look at LSM and see how they may be profiting from this. Of course, I believe in mission work and we should associate ourselves with groups that are helping others and preaching the gospel. But, LSM is growing and growing as more people migrate to Europe and "build up" the churches. The people who are making decisions for the churches, also run LSM. We have a conflict of interest in play and are supposed to still trust that those people in control are for the Lord's Move in Europe. It makes zero sense to me that people don't see this. I might have more trust in these brothers that govern the "Lord's Move" if they didn't also control the business that would of course, supply all the materials to be sold, and hosts all the "events" that would be paid to attend, and then use tithes to pay for the DCP (legal team).

How did it get like this? For those who know the LC, right now- you will recognize this. I'm not saying all the saints are signing up to move to Europe, but they do believe and are convinced that the Lord is "moving" there because of the Lord's Recovery. Maybe it is. Get rid of all the conflicts of interest and lack of accountability and maybe I'll believe it then! It's way too shady right now.

Sorry for taking over this thread, I just think the point that you made about the goal of producing full-timers isn't a small thing. The way they're doing it uses manipulative practices and even if the leading brothers truly believe that they need to ask people to move to Europe, I hope they would realize that the methods in place to produce this outcome is nothing short of cruel. When people are taught to never question and live in a bubble of other people who are exactly the same, and they're hearing the same thing over and over and over again- yeah, you could probably get them to move to the other side of the world for what you think is the GOAL that needs to be attained.

But, how much of that is the Lord and how much are the methods meant to influence? At what point to you justify using the methods and thinking that the Lord will lead them away from it if they're supposed to be led away. Thought reform has been used and probably already narrowed their mindset and reduced their ability to think about what they want for THEIR life. They're wanting to do this now because they are on a "high mission" for the Lord (in their minds) and it's their responsibility now to help fulfill God's eternal purpose as their "place in the Body." Because of course, that's the way to lead people to Christ- only in the Lord's Recovery and living the full-timer's life will make them the "most useful" in accomplishing this goal. It's a set way, set path, no room for the Lord to lead another way. It's ok though because why would the Lord lead you another way? The leading brother's obviously know the way and the Lord's goal and your function in the body should never question that. The idea that the Lord could lead them another way never becomes a question for many of them- and that is scary. They can't help it- they've been in thought reform. This is it for them.....Agh, I could go on and on, I apologize. It gets me worked up. It's spiritual abuse and people don't see it.

The term I heard OFTEN was, "it's so PRECIOUS to waste your younger years on the Lord." Well, what that means is- "how lucky for you that you get to give us all your 20's and do the bidding for our agenda." Because of course, to waste your younger years on the Lord could never mean to do anything outside the Lord's Recovery and goals of the leading brothers.

Sorry for being long winded- I could probably split this up on different threads. There are just so many controlling forces at work and I take it personally with my family involved. I wish people could see this more. I strongly believe their lives are being exploited and it's a social injustice at this point.