[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
"I'm not familiar with his relationship wth Tozer.

Concerning Lee's use of spin to rewrite history, you are spot on. I have rejected every bit of church history which I heard from Lee. It was all distorted and self-serving. While other Christians have espoused remnant theology, calling themselves the Restoration, or in our case the Recovery, Lee developed a MOTA genealogy beginning with Martin Luther. In order to make it work, he needs to find a MOTA for every age. His choice of Jean Guyon for the 17th century is so comical.

Darby was chosen for the 19th century. Have you ever read about George Muller's life of faith and work with orphanages? Darby expelled him, and for decades, membership in his little church club was contingent upon condemning Muller. What kind of oneness is that? After all my study of history, I concluded that nearly every quarantine was just a lynching. They had nothing to with teachings or heresy, rather were power struggles to eliminate all potential rivals, and silence those who could speak the truth.

Be careful how much investigative reading you decide to take on. It's endless!"






Oh, I'm realizing that!!! For whatever reason, I feel drawn to it though. Maybe because of the deprogramming that might be happening? I'm just guessing....I still want to go see someone at least once for that and see how it goes.

I think I'm drawn to it to because after being told "how it is" for so long, I want to find out for myself. I get that other people don't need to do that- but some do. We'll see where it takes me and how far I go with it!

I really liked that article from assembly life though- wow. Besides being a great writer, he covered so many topics in the LC I've had issues with and more I didn't know about. I had no idea about the factions other than the MW LC's and didn't realize the details of the movement in China. He had some really great points about mistakes being made and I thought his outlook for the future makes sense. I liked his line, "A ship headed towards an iceberg, if not moved, will hit the iceberg." That's probably not an accurate quote but it was something to that effect!

I was glad he shined some light on the Hank Hanegraff situation too. Obviously, I don't think anyone has hard proof, or I haven't seen it yet, but several of his former co-workers have spoken out against him, saying he really mishandled certain situations. They said he "redeemed" another "off" Christian group of bikers that CRI had formerly spoken out against. Basically, they were accusing him of taking money or donations that were coming in from that group and mishandling it somehow. It definitely didn't seem on the "up and up." Who knows, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt but he should definitely answer to the allegations- they're serious ones.

I was also glad the writer recognized the issue of how the "shouters" in China (early local churches of Lee- spin off of Little Flock of Nee <------correct me if I'm wrong) were persecuted by the government. This had bothered me and I'll explain more later...We got a very different version of this in LC! The way I heard was that all the persecution was the result of CRI's article about the local church. When you look at it though, it's much more complicated. Obviously, that article may have aided the persecution but there were already claims of baptizing in the name of Lee and Nee that are written about from what seem like respected authors in China. If they were doing that, it's not right but you have to remember that the United States has religious freedom, even for cults. The Chinese government didn't and they took note of what was being written and reported in China, not just taking into consideration CRI's opinion at the time. It's just not fair to blame CRI solely for the people who were imprisoned, genuine or not genuine believers. I'm sure many probably were genuine believers and that's horrible! But the culture in the LC is to always be "victimized" and "attacked" and that game is getting old. People being imprisoned in China for behavior we really don't know about shouldn't be blamed on CRI. CRI's is an Christian apologetic organization and they were just doing their job looking into the LC. This wasn't some random uneducated person who wrote a book attacking the LC- they were apologetics. I agree that they could have looked more into their research and its tragic that people were put in prison but it's not fair for WL or LSM to "victimize" themselves and say they're being attacked when their practices/teachings are questioned. That's just a normal thing that happens in some Christian groups. Wouldn't the Biblical response to being called a cult (when you believe your teachings and practices are orthodox and your a member of the body of Christ) to be to fellowship/explain/defend yourself to these fellow brothers and sisters in Christ? Obviously, that's not how it went down. I listened to an audio of Walter Martin (head of CRI at the time) speaking at an event and he claimed to have reached out to WL and that he was denied. If that's true, how is it justified that WL doesn't discuss the issues with Martin, a believer? He just victimized himself and the LC, attacked CRI, and used the situation with Chinese believers and a communist government imprisoning them to further "victimize" himself and the LC (the us vs. them tactic is play). In reality, LC and LSM have spent MILLIONS suing people, Christians included, "attacking" them! It's ridiculously hypocritical. Maybe Martin was lying (its possible) about WL refusing to meet with him. But, did WL ever meet with someone who questioned his teachings outside the LC? Doesn't the Bible tell us to first go to our brother if there is an offense? I understand, that works both ways. I'm just pointing out the "victim card" WL/LSM uses. It trickles down to the minds of all our family members who are still in as well, trust me. I spent a lot of time researching this topic because it was so hard for me to accept that WL was not who he said he was. We sort of built our family lifestyle around that fact that this was "the way" or sorry, "the new way." I'm glad I know now, I just wish I had heard this "poison" (ha!) sooner! But- I'm grateful to know now!

Just a thought- I wonder if you can specify in your tithes to the LC if you don't want your money to go to LSM or the DCP (group who sues)? If someone knows, please let me know. I'm wondering if my family knows their money goes to lawsuits when they tithe. That really bothers me, such exploitation if tithes go to that.

With the situation the LC used in China to blame CRI and victimize themselves-I think we all want this black and white explanation that doesn't exist. The most probable explanation to me is that the "shouters" or early LC of Lee may have been a little misguided, whether that is intentional of Lee or not, it doesn't matter in this point. It's the fact that the LC blamed CRI solely (from what I heard/read) at the time for these Chinese Christians being put in jail. Obviously, it was a complicated situation but then, VICTORY!!!!! When CRI came out with "We were wrong," it WAS spread around the LC like wildfire. Everyone really was "vindicated!" I felt so, at least! Yes, the article really nailed it- that was definitely the mindset. The journal was propped up on the bookshelf counter for probably over a year, ready for anyone to buy. Which of course, many did.

I didn't think anything about it at the time when the "We were Wrong" article was released. I thought it seemed to register more with the older saints, understandably. When looking into LC issues I remember reading some suspicions about it and that's when I saw all the controversy. It's hard to know what to believe but then later, reading about H.H.'s conversion to the Eastern Orthodox church, that just really made me question him. I haven't read any of his books but I was under the assumption that CRI and all writings were of a Protestant nature. I read all sorts of things people were saying and he's a pretty controversial person, to say the least. Some claimed he switched to the E.O.C. because he was getting free radio time to promote his material on a radio station owned by them.... I almost hate to write these things because I obviously don't know and I'm not going to spend my day searching for the "proof." But, I think questions should definitely be answered around the situation with CRI/H.H. and LSM/LC. If nothing manipulative/deceitful occurred- then great! But they should have full transparency with financial matters related to this because its obviously a win/win situation for both parties and given what H.H. was accused of by his staff previously, it just doesn't sit right. LSM/LC is vindicated and CRI/H.H. makes money and gains recognition. CRI is understandably going to profit from the sale of their journals to the saints, and that is understandable. I would just in interested to see how both parties may have profited financially from it. Obviously the LC profited from a P.R. standpoint, as the article mentions. I'd say CRI suffered in that aspect and they probably knew that would be the case. I just wonder if the motive was genuine repentance or financial gain.

Of course, H.H. has every right to write books and make the substantial income that he makes as long as he's not being "paid" to have a certain opinion. He seems nice enough but I think there's a little smoke there....it definitely hit me when I heard he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. They BARELY believe in justification by faith. There's a lot of faith plus works doctrine involved. I just thought it was pretty hypocritical given the fact that he's made his living being the "Bible Answer Man," and answering questions from what was obviously a Protestant perspective and now he's going back on all that at least doctrinally. That's kind of a big deal to me. I watched a video of him speaking at Gretchen Passentino's funeral, he spoke of how she was a friend, and how he admired that she could say, "We were wrong." If I'm remembering it correctly, he said he said asked her to help him "take a second look" at the LC. So they were a team, but the differences between the two were obvious. H.H. is very cool and collected, stylish with those white rimmed glasses, and G.P. seemed like just a normal, sweet, older woman who said she was, "a crazy Jesus lover."

I also watched a video of a testimony from Gretchen Passentino in a meeting apologizing and seemed like she was taking the blame fully for these Chinese Christians being put in jail. Like I said, I don't know but it definitely seems more complicated than that. She seemed really sweet, like she loved Jesus, and I have no doubt that she saw genuine believers in the LC and recanted her work because of that. And fairly, maybe some or all of it needed to be recanted. I just didn't like how all the blame seemed to be put on her and not H.H., Walter Martin, or the Chinese government.... There were a lot of factors involved! I just wonder how involved she was in the whole "vindication" between LSM and CRI. She seems genuine and I hope she wasn't used by H.H. to "seal the deal." I know it's not fair to speculate, but the way in which it all happened is just fishy. Also, someone filmed this testimony in a meeting probably without her knowledge (assuming with the low camera angle/side view) and put it on you tube. Maybe she gave permission afterwards, but you can tell she doesn't know she's being filmed and that's just a little sneaky in my opinion. She's there apologizing, if she wanted to film something and put it on you tube- she would. She already helped work on the article- but that person needed the video proof too! I don't know, I guess I just wouldn't like being filmed without my knowledge and thought it was less than classy. Obviously, the "vindication" was strong with that saint!!

I'm a little confused on who G.P. worked with though in the 70's? Was it H.H. or Walter Martin, the original leader of CRI? I've watched videos of Walter Martin- I really like him. I'm not sure what exactly he got wrong the LC but he seemed to get some of it right. I definitely agree with his points on pray-reading. That NEVER worked for me. I always blamed it on my ADD but I need to read the whole verse at once - then pray when I feel to. That's just me! Anyways, I don't know much about Walter Martin but he seems like someone who called it like he saw it. I can respect that. I heard (correct me if I'm wrong anyone), he got WL's interpretation of the Trinity wrong and called it modalism. I've read debates on that and honestly, Lee is so confusing to me regarding that topic and seems to contradict himself from one paragraph to the next. "It's this, but it's really that- but its really both" (-WL) That is basically how I feel after reading some of his explanations! I used to think I wasn't smart enough (ironically, that's the goal) But no, he's confusing at times. I never realized it's part of the "high teaching" tactic in thought reform- Make the teaching really confusing, use big words, and people blindly follow. It's a common tactic used in cults, very sad WL utilized it.

Either way, It's just not my place to determine that whether Walter Martin was right about ALL of what he said about WL. But he made points that dealt with bad practices, not just issues with doctrine, which I've personally had issues with before hearing them pointed out by Martin.

I apologize for rambling on about all that but that article touched on it and it's something that has bothered me. I suspected there was something fishy with CRI but I'm glad that article calls them out on it! It needs to be looked at for sure.

I'll have to read about Mueller and Darby after the links about the Germany situation. Thanks for sending Ohio. I agree there's a point at which it's too much, but I do want to "get out" the church history I've heard and get it straight at some point. You're right, I've always heard each century has a "prophet" of some sort. In my locality I think I just heard the term M.O.T.A. a few times. I heard "modern-day prophet" though, a lot. But yes, we were taught that there was a kind of lineage, starting with Luther- going down to Nee, then WL. And progressively, these people uncovered all the "hidden mysteries" of the Bible. Aside from questioning whether Nee or Lee was a part of that, I accepted that as truth until today.

Oh my. I have a lot to learn.