[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

While I think that the parable of the leaven was to warn that added things tend to disappear into and become permanently part of the things they are added to, this topic is much deeper than just something about leaven. It plays into something broader concerning the church in general, and not just in the first century, but also today.

I may have gotten this thread off on the wrong foot by citing the parables in Matt 13 and Luke 13. I was aware of the differing interpretations of "leaven" in these 2 parables, and was just taking the Lee interpretation as my starting point. By so doing I introduced unnecesary conflict, and perhaps derailed it somewhat. OBW and Timotheist, my apologies for a less-than definitive lead-in. I would rather use the word "leaven" the general sense, without referring to those less-than-unequivocal parables.

I believe the Lord warned the disciples of a falling-away, post-resurrection, but I can't find it, and maybe I've confused it with Paul's word in Acts 20 about the "fierce wolves" coming into the flock. I'll keep looking. But for the meantime, please take Revelation 2 & 3 as the starting point. What caused all the problems in the seven assemblies? Is there one "root cause" we can single out? Or even two or three?

I say this because I am interested in solving puzzles, and this one has me intrigued. Also, I do it before you all because it seems to me that some appropriate context may help us as we continue to diagnose "l'affaire Lee" here and elsewhere. As I mentioned in another post, it's not like Lee showed up in a marvelous christian brotherhood/sisterhood, 1964 USA, and proceeded to ruin everything. No, "l'affaire Lee" is to me a symptom of a larger issue, and I want to know what it is.

I am not looking for a once-for-all, definitive answer. The truth as we experience it is unfolding. But I want to go forward and today my vehicle of inquiry is primarily being fueled by the epistles in Revelations 2 & 3, and the questions I see being raised there. If the Spirit is speaking one thing, or two or three things at most, what is it speaking to the churches in those two chapters, in those 7 epistles?

Originally Posted by OBW

The problem isn't elders or no elders. It is not hierarchy or no hierarchy. It isn't modern or postmodern. It isn't megachurches or home churches. It isn't traditional worship v emerging worship.

Agreed. I am rapidly moving away from my "anti-organizational" views. I think organizational structure, or lack thereof, is not the crux of the matter.

Originally Posted by OBW

Alan: Is this thread intended to simply explore the notion that the structure with elders and deacons might have been in error from the beginning? Or is there some other direction you would like to go?

See my response to "UntoHim" in my previous post, e.g. "But the varied issues with the seven churches have a common root (I am surmising), and I want to find out what it is. What caused the degradation?" I apologize if my initial, thread-starting post wasn't coherent enough.