Local Church Discussions - View Single Post

John · 09-07-2017, 11:19 AM

I didn’t notice anything that addressed what seems to me like bias regarding the one Greek word I wrote about in post #105. I was scanning, so maybe I missed it. To continue, let’s go back to the KJV translation question about bias and try to get another person-off-the-street interview.

Asking a person off the street

“Sir, could you help us with a survey today about language?”

“Sure, if it doesn’t take too long.”

“It’ll only take a couple of minutes. Are you a member of any religion?”

“No, I’m an agnostic.”

“Okay, no problem. Here’s my question: There was a translation done of a book that was written in a foreign language. One of the foreign words occurred in many different places in the book and was translated into a number of different English words.

“Are you following me so far?”

“Yes, keep going.”

“Okay, I’m going to show you a list of all of the English words that were used in translating this one foreign word and the number of times that each of these English words was used. What I want you to do is to tell me what you notice about the English words that were used. Are you ready?

“Yes, let me see it.”

“Okay, here it is:

English Meanings of One Foreign Word

Nouns

The book uses these English nouns, the following number of times, to show the meaning of the one foreign word:

“army” and “war”—58
“host” and “forces” —43
“might” or “power”—16
“goods,” “riches,” “substance,” or “wealth”—31
“band of soldiers,” “band of men,” “company,” or “train”—4
“activity”—1
“valor”—28
“strength”—11

Adjectives and Adverbs

The book uses these English adjectives and adverbs, the following number of times, to show the meaning of the one foreign word:

“valiant” or “valiantly”—35
“strong”—6
“virtuous” or “virtuously”—4
“able”—4
“worthy” or “worthily”—2

“Alright, I’ve finished.”

“So, what did you notice, if anything?”

“The nouns are mainly about war and armies, along with valor and strength, plus riches and wealth. The adjectives and adverbs seem to fit with the sense of the nouns, more or less, except for two.”

“Which ones are those?”

“Virtuous” and “virtuously.”

“Okay, I know you’re in a hurry, so I’ll let you go. Thank you for your participation.”

Note: The data above is adapted from God’s Word to Women by Katharine Bushnell and presented slightly differently. Doing a word search in online Bibles may yield some different but similar results. For example, the online Blue Letter Bible (BLB) yields “army”—56 and “man of valor”—37, and so forth. Regardless of these somewhat minor discrepancies, the BLB shows that the word is translated with the sense of strength, action, wealth and so forth, the vast majority of the time. It is translated as “virtuous” and “virtuously” only 4 times out of over 240.

Be a translator

I could have gone on with the interview, but you may be just as tired of it by now as I am. So, let me just continue with a simplified “for dummies” presentation. Does it matter that “virtuous” was used amidst all the other definitions? What would be your next step if you had discovered this? If you had the time and interest, you would probably read all of the verses and try to figure out why “virtuous” was used.

To quickly get to the point, as it turns out, all of the verses with “virtuous” or “virtuously” used for the translation (four in all) are about women! The Hebrew word I am referring to as being translated this way is chayil, which is why Jane Anderson titled her book, A Woman of Chayil; and, one of the places where the word occurs is in a famous passage, often referred to as “The Proverbs 31 Woman.” Here it is:

Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price [is] far above rubies. (Pro. 31:10, KJV)

Christian men, have you ever wondered about this? Okay, everyone, how would you translate this word in this verse? Read all of Proverbs 31 again from verse 10. This woman is strong. She brings food from afar. She considers a field and buys it. There is no mention of her even checking with her husband. Consider the verses from a perspective of power rather than one of virtue, which, especially in KJV days, referred more to a woman’s chastity. The power perspective fits well in context and is very compelling, adding new meaning to the passage.

More questions?

The next thing you could ask yourself would be this: Why is “virtuous” (and “virtuously”) used as a translation in all the verses with chayil that pertain to women? Do you think that it could have anything to do with gender bias? Notice what happened: First of all, we found that there was one rather unusual translation of this Hebrew word. Next, we investigated where this somewhat odd translation was used. Finally, we discovered that it was used only in verses that were about women. And, to wrap it up, if you’re willing to go this far, we can ask ourselves why this happened. The answer, it seems to me, is because the translation committee was biased in favor of a traditional male perspective, which doesn’t see powerful words as appropriate for describing a woman. What if, for example, you had been reading for years about “the mighty men of virtue” (which is the way chayil was translated in the book of Joshua? Would this have influenced your thinking about these men?

As I stated in post #105, the unusual translation of one Greek word, oikodespoteō, that occurred once in the New Testament KJV is probably not enough to convince anyone that something questionable has taken place. Now, we have 240 plus instances of one Hebrew word in the Old Testament that has been given a number of English meanings that are in a similar vein except for four of them, and the thing that the four have in common is that they all have to do with women. Some may want to label me as a conspiracy theorist, but doesn’t this cause you to wonder what was afoot? Could this possibly be four instances in which the translation of chayil was influenced by the natural understanding related to gender? Let the reader decide.

There is a lot more that I could say about this; but, I will just recommend God’s Word to Women for more detail, since Katharine Bushnell describes it in great detail. I have simply packaged here a very small amount of what I have received and passed it on to you in my own style as a Christian man. This, possibly, lets me write more forcefully without having to worry that I am not in my proper place, as women often feel they have to do. My Christian brothers, however, may hang this on me as a negative, thinking that I’m just too weak or that my wife is “too much” or something similar to this. Well, I will just defer to what the Bible states about a Proverbs 31 woman.

Examples from the Local Church

As I write this, I can’t help but think again about the Local Church husband who thought that he had to control his wife in every detail. She eventually quit the Local Church. When their marriage was not working out, a Local Church elder counseled him to divorce her. He did so and then married another who was more “absolute for the ministry.” Another story comes to mind when considering my Local Church past. A deacon (or service office brother) was told by a leading elder something to this effect: “If you ever expect to become an elder, you better get your wife in line.” This former elder is now a main leader. It is this kind of thinking and behavior that permeates the system and has resulted in so many devastated marriages and families.

I hope to continue posting some; and, in my posts, I plan to keep using the Local Church as an example, not because I have a vendetta against them, but because this is the Local Church Discussions forum and discussion about Local Church practices fits here. (I was told that Ron Kangas stated something like, “We’ll discuss our doctrines with anyone, but we’re not going to discuss our practices,” when he was asked something about Local Church practice.) Well, in the Local Church system, women have been poorly treated by Christian men who have practiced male dominance and required female submission. I have two decades of experience in that system, and my own life and marriage were greatly impacted by their practices. (In fairness, ill treatment of women is found in other Christian churches also, to varying degrees, not just the Local Church.)

Good Christian men, rejoice!

Don’t be afraid, Christian men, to look with fresh eyes at the Word of God. Personally, I am thankful to be married to a woman of chayil. If you, Christian husbands, do not think that your wife is such a woman, encourage her in this line. Make room for her; don’t try to control her. Trust her. Work together in harmony with God.

Think about it: What if God’s work is hampered because about half of the body of Christ—Christian women—are hobbled in their walks with Jesus and have their God-given spiritual gifts squelched? What if we could release the spiritual gifts of this half by just realizing that God may have more in store for them than the roles we men have assigned to them due to a misunderstanding of some parts of the Bible? And, what if our misunderstanding was because of slight changes in translations of verses, like the one I pointed out in Proverbs 31 and in my previous post about ruling the house?

09-07-2017, 11:19 AM	#124
John Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 62	Male Gender Bias for Dummies #2 I didn’t notice anything that addressed what seems to me like bias regarding the one Greek word I wrote about in post #105. I was scanning, so maybe I missed it. To continue, let’s go back to the KJV translation question about bias and try to get another person-off-the-street interview. Asking a person off the street “Sir, could you help us with a survey today about language?” “Sure, if it doesn’t take too long.” “It’ll only take a couple of minutes. Are you a member of any religion?” “No, I’m an agnostic.” “Okay, no problem. Here’s my question: There was a translation done of a book that was written in a foreign language. One of the foreign words occurred in many different places in the book and was translated into a number of different English words. “Are you following me so far?” “Yes, keep going.” “Okay, I’m going to show you a list of all of the English words that were used in translating this one foreign word and the number of times that each of these English words was used. What I want you to do is to tell me what you notice about the English words that were used. Are you ready? “Yes, let me see it.” “Okay, here it is: English Meanings of One Foreign Word Nouns The book uses these English nouns, the following number of times, to show the meaning of the one foreign word: “army” and “war”—58 “host” and “forces” —43 “might” or “power”—16 “goods,” “riches,” “substance,” or “wealth”—31 “band of soldiers,” “band of men,” “company,” or “train”—4 “activity”—1 “valor”—28 “strength”—11 Adjectives and Adverbs The book uses these English adjectives and adverbs, the following number of times, to show the meaning of the one foreign word: “valiant” or “valiantly”—35 “strong”—6 “virtuous” or “virtuously”—4 “able”—4 “worthy” or “worthily”—2 “Alright, I’ve finished.” “So, what did you notice, if anything?” “The nouns are mainly about war and armies, along with valor and strength, plus riches and wealth. The adjectives and adverbs seem to fit with the sense of the nouns, more or less, except for two.” “Which ones are those?” “Virtuous” and “virtuously.” “Okay, I know you’re in a hurry, so I’ll let you go. Thank you for your participation.” Note: The data above is adapted from God’s Word to Women by Katharine Bushnell and presented slightly differently. Doing a word search in online Bibles may yield some different but similar results. For example, the online Blue Letter Bible (BLB) yields “army”—56 and “man of valor”—37, and so forth. Regardless of these somewhat minor discrepancies, the BLB shows that the word is translated with the sense of strength, action, wealth and so forth, the vast majority of the time. It is translated as “virtuous” and “virtuously” only 4 times out of over 240. Be a translator I could have gone on with the interview, but you may be just as tired of it by now as I am. So, let me just continue with a simplified “for dummies” presentation. Does it matter that “virtuous” was used amidst all the other definitions? What would be your next step if you had discovered this? If you had the time and interest, you would probably read all of the verses and try to figure out why “virtuous” was used. To quickly get to the point, as it turns out, all of the verses with “virtuous” or “virtuously” used for the translation (four in all) are about women! The Hebrew word I am referring to as being translated this way is chayil, which is why Jane Anderson titled her book, A Woman of Chayil; and, one of the places where the word occurs is in a famous passage, often referred to as “The Proverbs 31 Woman.” Here it is: Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price [is] far above rubies. (Pro. 31:10, KJV) Christian men, have you ever wondered about this? Okay, everyone, how would you translate this word in this verse? Read all of Proverbs 31 again from verse 10. This woman is strong. She brings food from afar. She considers a field and buys it. There is no mention of her even checking with her husband. Consider the verses from a perspective of power rather than one of virtue, which, especially in KJV days, referred more to a woman’s chastity. The power perspective fits well in context and is very compelling, adding new meaning to the passage. More questions? The next thing you could ask yourself would be this: Why is “virtuous” (and “virtuously”) used as a translation in all the verses with chayil that pertain to women? Do you think that it could have anything to do with gender bias? Notice what happened: First of all, we found that there was one rather unusual translation of this Hebrew word. Next, we investigated where this somewhat odd translation was used. Finally, we discovered that it was used only in verses that were about women. And, to wrap it up, if you’re willing to go this far, we can ask ourselves why this happened. The answer, it seems to me, is because the translation committee was biased in favor of a traditional male perspective, which doesn’t see powerful words as appropriate for describing a woman. What if, for example, you had been reading for years about “the mighty men of virtue” (which is the way chayil was translated in the book of Joshua? Would this have influenced your thinking about these men? As I stated in post #105, the unusual translation of one Greek word, oikodespoteō, that occurred once in the New Testament KJV is probably not enough to convince anyone that something questionable has taken place. Now, we have 240 plus instances of one Hebrew word in the Old Testament that has been given a number of English meanings that are in a similar vein except for four of them, and the thing that the four have in common is that they all have to do with women. Some may want to label me as a conspiracy theorist, but doesn’t this cause you to wonder what was afoot? Could this possibly be four instances in which the translation of chayil was influenced by the natural understanding related to gender? Let the reader decide. There is a lot more that I could say about this; but, I will just recommend God’s Word to Women for more detail, since Katharine Bushnell describes it in great detail. I have simply packaged here a very small amount of what I have received and passed it on to you in my own style as a Christian man. This, possibly, lets me write more forcefully without having to worry that I am not in my proper place, as women often feel they have to do. My Christian brothers, however, may hang this on me as a negative, thinking that I’m just too weak or that my wife is “too much” or something similar to this. Well, I will just defer to what the Bible states about a Proverbs 31 woman. Examples from the Local Church As I write this, I can’t help but think again about the Local Church husband who thought that he had to control his wife in every detail. She eventually quit the Local Church. When their marriage was not working out, a Local Church elder counseled him to divorce her. He did so and then married another who was more “absolute for the ministry.” Another story comes to mind when considering my Local Church past. A deacon (or service office brother) was told by a leading elder something to this effect: “If you ever expect to become an elder, you better get your wife in line.” This former elder is now a main leader. It is this kind of thinking and behavior that permeates the system and has resulted in so many devastated marriages and families. I hope to continue posting some; and, in my posts, I plan to keep using the Local Church as an example, not because I have a vendetta against them, but because this is the Local Church Discussions forum and discussion about Local Church practices fits here. (I was told that Ron Kangas stated something like, “We’ll discuss our doctrines with anyone, but we’re not going to discuss our practices,” when he was asked something about Local Church practice.) Well, in the Local Church system, women have been poorly treated by Christian men who have practiced male dominance and required female submission. I have two decades of experience in that system, and my own life and marriage were greatly impacted by their practices. (In fairness, ill treatment of women is found in other Christian churches also, to varying degrees, not just the Local Church.) Good Christian men, rejoice! Don’t be afraid, Christian men, to look with fresh eyes at the Word of God. Personally, I am thankful to be married to a woman of chayil. If you, Christian husbands, do not think that your wife is such a woman, encourage her in this line. Make room for her; don’t try to control her. Trust her. Work together in harmony with God. Think about it: What if God’s work is hampered because about half of the body of Christ—Christian women—are hobbled in their walks with Jesus and have their God-given spiritual gifts squelched? What if we could release the spiritual gifts of this half by just realizing that God may have more in store for them than the roles we men have assigned to them due to a misunderstanding of some parts of the Bible? And, what if our misunderstanding was because of slight changes in translations of verses, like the one I pointed out in Proverbs 31 and in my previous post about ruling the house?