[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They have so much useless human activity. Their teachings are merely dead doctrines to them.

Well, yes and no. I do see your point from a both a doctrinal and experiential perspective. But my point is that repetitive chanting opens one up to spiritual forces. Yes, some of that seems quite positive, initially. What's wrong with repeating words translated from the Bible? Or repeatedly calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Precisely this: that words of themselves will never save you, and are the "vain repetitions of the gentiles'' that Jesus spoke of in Matt 6:7; also that when using repetition one begins to experience a subjectively altered state where suggestions, even unspoken ones, begin to take hold, and control. Watchman Nee was called "mesmerising" by those who saw him. They say that people imitated his clicking noises when his false teeth touched. Lee learned from the master. I wonder, how many times Lee spoke the word "intercede" in the actual message cited in that HWMR? Even after "polishing" it looks weird. He just keeps saying the same thing over and over and over again.

Others noticed this trend as well. Here's a comment from a discussion board of the Geftakys Assembly, another high-demand, post-Brethren spin-off run by George Geftakys, their own special anointed brother. The thread was discussing similarities and differences between the two groups.

Originally Posted by Assembly Board

Hi Dave K. !

You probably don't remember me, (Mark Campbell from the Valley) but I remember you from the early Fullerton Assm. days.

My recollections of you were formed by a campaign to discredit you by Assm. management and I apologize to you for my blindly accepting the smear campaign that was directed at you---- please forgive me for this.

As to Witness Lee: I often ran into members of this group at school, and at work (I worked with one of these guys at one job and also had an association via another job where they were contractors). They didn't want to talk about theology (such as their views of the Trinity) as that was disparaged as being, "in the mind." I recall Tom Mad's response to this: "are you out of yours?" ;D

I recall having to drop off some things at the work place of the contractors I mentioned above one day when about ten of them circled me and began to chant, "O' Lord Jesus", trying to get me to say that phrase so that a vacuum would be created in my heart that the Spirit could fill ???. I found out later that they based this teaching on the Rom. 10 verse re. "who confesses Jesus as Lord" will be saved.

This kind of thing seems to be heavily influenced by Eastern religious thinking, as does the other less wacko "inner life" kind of stuff that the Assm. was also into. As Tom points out, the fruit of these kind of teachings prove how close to God's will they really are--- elitist, hypocritical, inhumane, arrogant, and unreasonable!

Tom mentions that the ability to reason is what most closely demonstrates our being made in God's image, and I would agree with this. However, that intellectual ability must also be coupled with a moral sensitivity or our religion will lack God's heart.

Both of these groups, Witness Lee and the Assm., were out of sync with God not only because they had confused thinking, but because the groups were able to get members to ignore their own consciences. This led to the kind of abuses where members (like you) could get drummed out because of the false accusations they raised against them!

It was good that you had some previous Christian training and experience, but think of the many who now wander the Earth thinking they "tried that Christian thing" and as a result now have no enjoyment of God. There are those who can't step inside a church anymore as they fear what might happen to them! :'(

To me a cult is a cult (primarily) when it is more concerned with advancing the selfish interests of the leader/leaders, and the goals of the group, vs. building the faith of the individual member. Cults attempt to destroy any vestige of individual expression while true God inspired ministry seeks to "buildup" the individual believer in their faith. This is a danger any Christian group can get into and the reason Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc. constantly reminded us of this error.

This cultish attempt to violate personal boundaries can be performed while seeming to be very orthodox in ones teaching of the bible. All of the "cultishness" happens via subtle alternations and misuse of scripture--- as in: "brother, are you standing in unity with us or are you going to give place to the devil?" >

However, those that courageously challenge those who misuse authority in the church are the true servants of Jesus Christ; in a cult these will be forced out!

Good to hear from you. God bless, Mark C.

The chanting impinges on the ability to think clearly & rationally, a capacity given to us by God. This opens us up to unseen and unrecognized forces coming in, carried through the message. Then words like "oneness", "mingling", "consummation" and "processed" all get their own special subjective response. Thus it is much worse than merely dead doctrines (which would be bad enough).

"Now we only care for the Body." But we don't love our neighbour. "We only care for Good Building Material (naive college students)." But we don't care for the poor, the sick, the weak, for those who cannot repay us in this age. And so forth. Chant "Four legs good, two legs bad" often enough, and it will take on a life of it's own. But not the divine life. If you want the website the discussion was found on, it's here:

http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.p...ic=1299.0;wap2

And remember, in mainland China they didn't chant bible verses so much as Witness Lee slogans. I'm talking about hour after hour of chanting, day after day. I saw videos of this, smuggled out. No wonder it all went south so badly.