Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake
No, you are still making an argument of semantics. Yours is not the "LC argument".
By analogy, there would be no nation of Israel if 23 million Jews lived somewhere other than Israel. Though all 23M are Jews only 6M are practically standing on the proper ground as the nation of Israel. Therefore, a nation exists practically.
When a Jew exercises the Law of Return they begin participating in fulfilling the mission of the nation of Israel. They call themselves an Israeli citizen because they are... they are not an Israeli citizen merely because they call themselves one. A Jew living in New York is not an Israeli citizen just because they call themselves as such.
Likewise, a group of Christians meeting as the church in a city on the ground of oneness in that city, expressing the universal Body of Christ are the church in that place and should call themselves as such. A name alone is insufficient. And like the Jew living in New York, a Christian can choose to live in a denomination but is not practically living on the ground of oneness of the church no matter how much they claim they are. Neither should they complain about those who actually meet on the ground of oneness of the church and call themselves as such because that is what they are, not just what they call themselves.
Drake
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I am confused by this argument you are presenting. What is the ground of oneness?
Let's engage in a meaningful dialogue based on the Truth in the Scripture. You can quote WL or WN if you like, don't care as long as we are discussing the truth in the scripture.
I will begin with your analogy of Israel. It seems based on this analogy that there is no "Kingdom of Israel" without people willing to stand on this ground. That seems to me to make this a very important issue for the Church, which is the Kingdom. Therefore it seems to me the NT should be very explicit about this truth.
When I ask myself, what does the scripture say about such an incredibly important doctrine as "the ground of oneness" Ephesians 4 and John 17 are the first two references that immediately come to mind.
4 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
I think this portion clearly foresees that oneness will require lowliness, meekness and long-suffering. That to me suggests we will have to be one with all sorts of believers with different opinions, practices and concepts.
But the bond that holds us together is the peace that Jesus wrought on the cross. A name we call our group is not a bond that is going to hold all these different believers together.
Paul states it as a fact that there is one body, one spirit and one hope of our calling. What we call our fellowship doesn't change any of that. I have a hope of a coming kingdom and calling myself the "super spiritual vanguard of the Christian elite warriors" doesn't in any way change this one hope. (My point is not to mock the LRC but rather to point out how every single little Christian group generally gives them-self some positive name).
Again, there is one Lord for every Christian regardless of the name of their group, one faith, and one baptism. We are not immersing believers into the name of our group but into the person and work of the Triune God.
Likewise we are all one because there is one God and Father who is above all, over all and in you all.
I believe it is sovereign of God that a group like the LRC takes the stand they do because it causes us to examine this truth of the "ground of oneness". But I also believe it is sovereign that there are many other fellowships of Christians.
WL used to compare his ministry to graduate school. But I remember a book that came out years ago saying that everything important this person ever learned they learned in kindergarten. Graduate school is necessary, and perhaps WL is right to compare his "training day" to graduate school. By comparison some Christian gatherings are kindergarten. But God is sovereign and in the grand scheme of things Kindergarten is just as important and impactful on the population as graduate school.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
It seems to me that the two most important things that Jesus is giving us to keep the oneness is the name of the Triune God and His word, which is truth.
I do not see anything in either of these sections that suggests there is any other name by which we would keep the oneness.