[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Thanks for these comments because they give a chance to clarify.

I didn't exactly hear Drake say the things you said. I still hear him saying that the real work of God is only going on in the LCM.

Although I understand the impulse to be faithful to an overriding vision, the problem with the LCM vision is that the practical outworking of it always seems to be more than a little self-serving.

Being self serving is an excellent example of not being fully matured. We all know that children are completely self centered and as we grow and mature we learn to care for and be empathetic for others.

Originally Posted by Igzy

So they are focused on "the building of the church." How is that really different than any church being focused on the growth and condition of its members? What is different between the church being built and all the members growing in community? There shouldn't be any, really. So why the problem with 'Christianity'?

Paul says if in anything you are otherwise minded the Spirit will make that known to you. As long as they are pursuing this avenue in a genuine spirit of oneness with the Lord they'll be adjusted if they have gone down a dead end.

Originally Posted by Igzy

With the LCM it always comes down to their defining general ideas in such proprietary specifics that they effectively de-legitimize everyone but themselves. For example, there are surely many groups that meet as the church in the city. But the LCM recognizes only those associated with LSM.

Ironically they act like they are in the barn, which WL shared was akin to religion, and that following Jesus led the sheep out of the barn and into the pasture. But this "failing" of theirs is hardly that different from many other Christian groups.

Originally Posted by Igzy

What does "building the Church" really mean, anyway? I don't think any of us really know.

And the fact is the Lord did not commission us to build the church. He commissioned us to disciple the nations. He said HE would build the church. But he never told us to. At the very most he told us to build up "one another." But no place in the NT does he tell us to build the church.

This is not how I read 1Cor which tells us to be careful how we build. It is also contrary to the concept of "edification" used by Paul in his epistles.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Now I know there are OT types of temple and wall building. But there has to be a reason that the charge to us to build the church is not so direct. And I think the reason is because the Lord wanted us to focus on people and not an institution. One of the pitfalls of getting into "church building" is that it easily transmutes into an impersonal effort where people become subordinate to the cause, where they become means to an idealized but never quite realized end--in this case the awesome and terrible "Builded Church." This is exactly what has happened in the LCM. When it becomes about "the Church" in the way the LCM means, people become secondary. Huge mistake.

That is one possible theory. Another is that during the gospels the Lord was speaking to those who had not been saved, were not part of the new creation and needed to pass through death and resurrection prior to "working". This is a pretty clear type with the matter of the Sabbath rest.

Originally Posted by Igzy

For what is the Church? It's just the people. The LCM seems to miss this, though. To them building the Church means furthering the cause of the LCM movement. It's about an abstract idealistic "purpose." It's not about helping the brother or sister sitting next to them. "Sorry, brother. I can't help you. I'm too busy building the Church."

That is a very valid point, according to James pure religion is to care for the brothers and sisters. I don't take issue with their doctrine of building the church, but I do take issue with their doctrines somehow bypassing Jame's word concerning caring for orphans and widows.

Originally Posted by Igzy

The Jesus who left the flock to rescue one lost lamb is a Jesus the LCM is unfamiliar with. In the LCM Jesus would be more likely to dump the lamb for the sake of "the Church," which in their case is not people, but a MacGuffin
.

I agree with this but think you have gone further astray from the thread. It seems contrived to attribute this to "building the church" or that "the church is the unique move of God in this age".

I would attribute this to a love of money. I knew many saints who were very concerned with charitable works, but it was clear that you had to not let the right hand know what the left hand was doing. Once again, the problem is with Judas who holds the money bag, he complains about how you are wasting your money instead of giving it to him. The reasons are just lies, the reality is the love of money and trying to make merchandise of the saints.