Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical
The thing is, with the communion bread and wine, nothing happens to it, the bread and wine is not changed, so it is not a mystery. You have been taught that something happens. But your own senses tells you that it is still bread and wine, it tastes the same, looks the same, and if it was studied chemically before and after it would be exactly the same. A mystery is something that happens that cannot be explained. Since nothing has happened to the bread and wine, then it cannot be a mystery. Real mysteries involve something happening that cannot be explained, e.g. water tastes like wine. A belief is not a mystery - just believing something to be true does not make it mysterious. A mystery involves something tangible that cannot be explained. Tongues of fire, rushing wind, a puff of smoke? Anything happen? No, nothing happens after the Priest prays over the elements on the table. The only thing that has happened is mass delusion of gullible minds that something has happened. Because we do not believe in the same delusion because there is no mystery about it, then you believe we do not have the same faith in Jesus.
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Evangelical, do you see baptism as a Mystery or is it just a symbol for you? If it's just a symbol, then why does the Lord urge on the importance of baptism? If baptism is a Mystery, did you see the Holy Spirit descending on you? Or maybe you saw some lightning and fumes?
Since you like to see patterns in the New Testament, I would like you to ponder on this pattern:
With ages, after Adam and Eve had lost communion with God, people lost their knowledge about God. Only Jews believed in God. Other nations denied their Creator.
When Jesus, God the Son, came down on earth and dwelled among people, most of people rejected Him. They didn’t believe in our Lord Jesus Christ. They saw Him as a mere mortal, not God.
Jesus came to restore the lost communion between God and man. However, many of the Lord’s desciples left Him when He told them: "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” John 6:51 ESV
"So the Jews grumbled about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” John 6:41-42
"The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:52-56 ESV
"When many of His disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in Himself that His disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” John 6:60-64
Please check also these verses: Matthew 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, and Luke 22:14-23. (It can be one more pattern to ponder on).
The verses and their pattern say about the Lord's real presence in the Eucharist.
The early Church and all ancient churches believed and believe in the actual body and blood. Just check "History - Patristic Period":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation
Evangelical, brother, please pray and decide for yourself, where you stand and which pattern you follow. Do you deny the Lord or believe in Him?
God bless.
PS I don't really like Pascal's Wager that much but it can be related to the question. And it has something to ponder on as well.
God is, or God is not. Reason cannot decide between the two alternatives.
A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
You must wager (it is not optional).
Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager