Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical
A summary of the descriptions of the churches is:
Catholic - apostate church
Protestant - degraded reformed church
Brethren - degraded recovered church
local churches - genuine recovered church
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Evangelical, I am sorry but I belive this is a myth. You must know the Bible well, so do you really want to say that Jesus Christ is a liar or the Bible truth changes?
It is the Lord who says that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church. (Matthew 16:18).
If the Church became apostate or degraded, this means the Church was conquered by hell and the Lord didn't keep His promise.
It also means that the apostles were not able to choose and instruct the right disciples. And it also means that the Holy Spirit became inactive in the Church for many centuries. Do you believe all this?
What about the Apostle Paul who says that the Church is holy and without blemish, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing? (Ephesians 5:27) Was it just a temporary Bible truth?
It is the same Apostle who says that the Church is the household of God, a pillar and ground of truth. (1 Timothy 3:15)
When Jesus says, "And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20), doesn't this mean that the Lord will be with His Church all the time to the end of the age?
Do you mean that the Lord and the Holy Spirit left His Church at the first centuries, took a pause, then, in the 15 century, the Lord was recovered by Luther, and then He was lost again... until the 20th century when Witness Lee recovered the Lord and the true Christian faith at last?
Then what about Ephesians 3:21? "to Him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever."
Doesn't this mean that the Church will glorify the Lord through all generations, always? Do you want to say that the Church stopped to glorify the Lord (I.e. the Church disappeared) until the Lord and His Church were recovered by Witness Lee and his man-made organization?
Evangelical, don't you see the contradictions?
I hope you will not say that the Church became invisible. The Lord and Apostles never said anything about invisible church. The Church is the Body of Christ. The Body, ecclesia, must be visible. The ecclesia are those people who gather together.
If the Church became apostate, then why do you accept her Bible which was compiled in the 4th century? It means you read the book of corrupt church. Why do you accept and trust the Bible canon of the apostate church? The canon which was formed by the Church Fathers in the year 363 at the Council in Laodicea? You don't seem to be consistent. What if apostate church gave you a wrong canon of the Bible? WL should have recovered it as well. Why did he give a new translation and didn't change the canon?
I think this statement is more consistent:
"If the gates of Hell prevailed against it even for one day, then that Scripture is wrong. The Bible also says that the Holy Spirit will always teach and guide the Church, and lead it into all Truth. As Christians we have to believe that that Scripture is true, and that God has always preserved and kept His Church alive and well." (An Eastern Orthodox author).
Why should I trust you and Witness Lee and not the Apostolic Fathers, who followed and studied from the Apostles personally? Why should I believe you and Witness Lee but not early Church writings and Christian authors of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. centuries? They are very consistent in their faith. For example, for the Apostles' students and early Christians the Holy Communion (Eucharist) was not just a symbol but actual body and blood of Christ. For you and Witness Lee, it is just a symbol. Who is right? I believe the early Christians were right. Though you are right too. Because the Witness Lee's organization is not the Church. That's why what you have is just a symbol.
The Church was one unified body for the first one thousand years. The western Roman Catholic Church became corrupt doctrinally while the Eastern Orthodox Church preserved the Christian faith. (It is possible to check it out if we read the early Church writings and the decisions of the Councils before the Great Schism). Thus, the Church as a whole never apostatized. What is corrupt are groups who have broken away from the true church and established false doctrine, such as the RCC.
Christ did not come to establish a Bible, but rather His Kingdom through the Church. I wonder, could the LRC appear and exist without the Holy Bible? I don't think so. However, the Church was created without the Bible, existed without the Bible for a few first centuries and if you take the Holy Scripture from the Church, it will remain and not collapse. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth which is based on Christ. While, the LRC is based on Witness Lee's private opinion about the Bible. Do you see the difference?
Evangelical, I am sorry if I am bit harsh on you. You seem to be a thoughtful man. So, it is all personal, however not against you but against WL and his doctrines that my wife blindly holds on. She prefers to believe in myths since she doesn't have a wish to study and analyze the issue.
Please forgive me.
God bless.
PS The Church is One
by Alexei Khomiakov
The Church is one, notwithstanding her division as it appears to a man who is still alive on earth. It is only in relation to man that it is possible to recognize a division of the Church into visible and invisible; her unity is, in reality, true and absolute. Those who are alive on earth, those who have finished their earthly course, those who, like the angels, were not created for a life on earth, those in future generations who have not yet begun their earthly course, are all united together in one Church, in one and the same grace of God...