[Hope]

Dear Brother Mike,

I am a little put out with you. I need to get on with other things besides this thread but you keep putting out these excellent posts with such concise and pointed insight. You make me think and consider and then desire for your points to be expanded through some dialogue.

So cut it out!!!

Originally Posted by OBW

Roger has said it best.
And YP has correctly noticed that the ones that seemed to want to carry this thread to the worst extremes have essentially vacated.

True, but if you go back a bit and if you were reading my PMs and emails you will notice that some are making ole Hope an issue. Here is a sampling. There are some comments by me in ( ).

1. In denial (in denial of what?)

2. Like most former elders of the LCS. (This from djohnson who was never in a local church. Can someone clarify what most former elders of the LCS are like?)

3. Hope has never left it in mind and heart and probably not bodily if his church in Raleigh is anything like the other LCS spin offs. (Again from djohnson who was never in a local church. So how can I get a LC lobotomy and a heart transplant that would satisfy my dear loving critics?)

4. If you truly are innocent of these things. (Tell me again what I am guilty of.)

5. We may say that Don has protested in a poor way. (Please educate me on a better way to present my observations.)

6. You accuse Don of trying to say every place was not the same. (Wow, I am guilty as charged.)

7. There was some concern that requests for details sounded more like attempts to disprove the story. Assuming that was not the case, it does point to our inability to act with compassion. (Could it be that the details would have confirmed the story? This is where you are over my head. If the shoe was on the other foot, I would have rushed in with details and confirming witnesses. Why do you think the LSM is scared to death regarding my coming history?)

Originally Posted by OBW

My assessment is that:

1. While there is both sound doctrine in the LC, it is buried in leaven, self aggrandizement, and false teachings cloaked in Biblical terms.

1. Yes, to leaven. Yes, to self aggrandizement. Yes to false teachings cloaked in Biblical terms. But what false teaching are not found to be cloaked in Biblical terms? ESPECIALLY YES TO SELF AGGRANDIZEMENT AND CRITICISM OF EVERYONE ELSE.
   
   

   Originally Posted by OBW

   While the LC and the LSM are full of precious and sweet Christians, the structure around them is full of corrupt, greedy, and/or self-centered men who will use the money of the loyal for their own personal gain or that very loyalty for their personal prestige.

Originally Posted by OBW

Don: While each church was surely unique, the spread of the “ministry’s” control was unstoppable. The church in Dallas may not have been an open source of the kind of things that BlessD and Juliep speak, but it was used for them anyway by the hierarchy that surrounded you/us. You do not do yourself any favor by seeking to spare anyone or anyplace of inquiry.
Despite my statements elsewhere that the LC is a sound evangelical group with problems, here I say that those problems are so strong and high that there is little chance of saving it. (I hope that the GLA can prove me wrong.)
Truth is in Christ, not the LC. The LC has become corrupt. It began long ago, even before Benson visited Houston to shame Jane. Much of it was for so long hidden, even from you. But you began to see it some period before you left. It has continued to grow. It is time to open the gates of the LC and let the flock out of their captivity..

Mike this is one of the most insightful statements I have read on the forum. Some very, as you say, corrupt, greedy, and/or self-centered men who will use the money of the loyal for their own personal gain or that very loyalty for their personal prestige, did get into the churches and work. See Acts chapter 20,

Acts 20:28-31, “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. Therefore be on the alert,” NASB

My failures from my viewpoint mainly are around the fact I was not on the alert. I even encouraged the wolves and those who were looking for a following. I believe the Lord has forgiven me and I have confessed to many of the brothers and sisters and if there are anymore to whom I owe repentance I hope they will come forward.

Yes, I agree that by 1974-75 it was too late. The die was cast. Not only was the spread of the control of the ministry unstoppable but also the corruption and attack on the independence of the individual church and brothers and sisters was beginning to be an ongoing phenomenon. Thus, I earlier said to you that if you had stayed in Dallas rather than moving to Irving things would have gone about the same.

Yes, there were many hidden things and many surprises. There was always more than one thing going on. There was always similar words but different definitions.

Originally Posted by OBW

For those who revere Lee, it is time to stop. He may have brought much truth together in a way we had never seen it done before (at least in the 60s and 70s). But he mixed that truth with leaven. It has been chemically changed from pure truth to yeast-truth. You can no longer separate the two. You must start over. To do so does not require Lee or Nee, else you risk reintroducing the leaven you seek to expel..

It is a shame but it is true. I just cannot read Lee. I have not been able to since around 1989. I tried to recently. Here in Durham we have a few gospel friends. They are happy to come to our homes for refreshments and some social contact and we have been having a short gospel sharing with them. I recalled a publication by WL called “Gospel Outlines.” I looked it up on their web-site. I tried to see how it might help but I felt I was wading through a knee deep East Arkansas river swamp. You ought to visit their web-site. It is unique in its reverence to the man WL and his heritage.

Originally Posted by OBW

[*]Lee also brought much of the corruption upon himself through his money schemes which he mixed with the church, then in pushing his immoral son on the churches through the LSM and lying about those who sought to bring that shame to an end...

TRUE and very tragic.

Originally Posted by OBW

Unfortunately, that means that those wonderful, sweet, pure Christians are constantly being inundated with that leaven, to their detriment, and associated with the sins of their leaders by their silence, especially when they simply look the other way due to following the unbiblical teachings of deputy authority...

RIGHT AGAIN

Originally Posted by OBW

In another post you mentioned several names and family names to suggest that those could not be so corrupt and that they would not knowingly tolerate such corruption. You may be correct with respect to the 70s, but we are no longer sure that any of those are clearly not now corrupted at some level (although I'm fairly sure that some are not). In any case, there are several leading ones in the Texas region who were that corrupt at that time. Ignoring BP, I think that at least one of them was in Dallas from about 1975. Some of the others in those meetings may have merely been invited to observe the control that others could exert. I'm sure that it was effective.

No need to pursue some of the general charges by the formerly teenage sisters, it is a real tar baby. But as to the person you are referring to. He was who he was without any help from WL or James Barber. Sadly the way the leadership structure was set up he was able to bring in his own problem ways. Eventually he alienated so many in Texas he had to leave. Then in the Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado area the same thing happened. Sad. Too many others were hurt. He was not all bad but got no help. I should have been much stronger as also George should have stood up to him. MY BAD. I do not blame WL for the fruit of this brother. George and I are also guilty for letting his flesh damage others.

He would not have invited others to witness him abuse a saint. That is one problem I have with the details of the two stories. I do not agree that anyone extra would have been invited to a meeting of confrontation in order to learn how to shame or control.

Criticizing people behind their back and the cowardly method of attacking people in public where there will not be push back was an awful trait of WL that was not checked and was picked up by others. This was a huge personal flaw that along with family loyalty and unchecked ego eventually swallowed up WL’s positive portion.

Hope, Don Rutledge