Quote:
Originally Posted by aron
If you go back, I think you'll see that I never proposed two or three as a church. What I said were that two or three had the Lord's promised presence, which you deemed insufficient. You then proposed an ontological entity which had all the hallmarks, to me, of the Great Harlot. See e.g. One Publication edict, with no buying or selling unless it had the Mark of the Ministry (to avoid confusion, of course).
Two or three may have the Lord's name, His presence, His commission ("God forth before Me"), His binding and loosing, and His testimony ("Tell it to the church"). But all this seems insufficient, because, "It's not the church."
Then your alternative comes along, with the Seer of the Revelation, God's Oracle, who by Paul's word wasn't even qualified to be a local elder (see, Timothy and Philip Lee, His admittedly "unspiritual cooks"), etc. Forgive me if I'm nonplussed.
And Lee's benefactor Nee wasn't much better, if at all, basing his main teachings on the revelations of women, from the secret rapture to the three parts of man, all the while insisting that women aren't qualified to teach. And on and on; exceptions become rules and rules exceptions based on contingencies and whims, with the only constant being that Maximum Brother is always right.
We can "do church" with two or three or with a mega church. Or on a boat or a plane. Or along the highways and byways. Don't be narrow where Christ is broad. Your narrowness may indeed produce a gilded cup, but you can't guarantee it's contents. Lee said it had, "More God", but the testimonies of many say otherwise.
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aron, I was more addressing a view like Koinonia proposed that two or three sisters could constitute a church.
I think of it like this. Jesus and the 12 disciples can arguably be considered the first church. Suppose at that time another group of disciples started another "Jesus group", could they claim the Lord's presence? No. Jesus remained only with those he chose to be His first church.
Similarly, after Jesus's ascension, His presence for the church remained with the genuine church that He established.
Just because two or three believers get together does not mean they can claim to be a church established by Christ.
In the bible times the church was a particular visible entity in each city. It was not a haphazard or random scattering of small groups and believers. This is why churches were easy to persecute - everyone knew where they were. Persecutors did not have to chase Christians down rabbit holes or find them scattered around in parks by 2 or 3.