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ZNPaaneah · 10-12-2016, 05:47 AM

12And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write:
These things saith he that hath the sharp two-edged sword: 13I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s throne is; and thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith, even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there some that hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also some that hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans in like manner. 16Repent therefore; or else I come to thee quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knoweth but he that receiveth it.

This is the church where we can really see what Witness Lee refers to as “degraded Christianity”. You have Balaam, a false prophet, teaching the believers to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. You have still more who hold the teachings of the Nicolaitans (which are in like manner to Balaam’s teachings). They are dwelling where Satan’s throne is. Faithful brothers like Antipas are being killed in their midst.

But here is the thing, if you want the hidden manna you need to overcome the things in Pergamum. If you want a white stone with a new name written on it you need to overcome the things in Pergamum. It seems to me obvious that this “white stone with a new name” refers to the children of Israel crossing the Jordan river and entering into the good land. So is this church really degraded, or does our entrance into the rich church life take place when we overcome these things?

If you think of these things as “degraded” then you don’t want anything to do with them. But if you think of them as something that you must overcome in order to be fully matured it is a very different attitude.

Who is Balaam? He is the NT meme for a false prophet. Did he speak the word of God? Yes. Did he have genuine experiences of God? Yes. Were his prophecies concerning Israel false? No. So then, what makes him a false prophet?

He was motivated by money, a house full of gold to be precise. He was willing to sell out to Balak to teach him how to stumble the children of Israel with idolatry and fornication.

So then, how does he do it? How do you teach the children of Israel to eat things sacrificed to idols while at the same time speaking God's word?

1. You build a true teaching on the MOTA, showing from the Old Testament types that a prophet like Moses would come, Jesus.

However you place the context of this teaching about NT ministries and let the naive babes in Christ come to the erroneous conclusion that they have discovered some secret principle that at any given time the Lord is only moving through one genuine ministry, the one with the vision for the age. You don't say it in those words, you let Ray Graver and others like him say it. Your protestations make it sound not like a disagreement with Ray but that you didn't want it revealed who you were. Then, bingo, you are now the MOTA, another Jesus, and all the churches are now "indebted" to your ministry. Partaking of your ministry is akin to eating things sacrificed to idols.

2. Problem is that your Balaam's sins, his actions are going to cause confusion. So you build this doctrine of deification. Because of all the time you have spent in the Bible, in the word, at the feet of Watchman Nee, etc he has become "deified". Everyone under his ministry will be deified too, only not to the same extent. So the reason you don't understand and have questions is that he is deified and you have not been deified as much. If that doesn't shut you up then remember, a question mark looks like a serpent. Finally, if you are still going to ask questions we can get rid of you like we did with so many others.

Does Balaam preach the gospel? Sort of, it is a different gospel, but it is a gospel of being deified, of being the elite Christians, and the gospel of being the only ones to know who the MOTA is.

We also have the Nicolaitans which are described as being "in like manner" to Balaam in that they also cast a stumbling block before the children of God. This tells us a lot about what is going on. You have two approaches to the church life described by Jesus in Matt 18, one approach we seek out the lost sheep, we bring them back to the fold, we rejoice. The other is you place a stumbling block before the lambs of God, they are sacrificed to Satan, God's enemy. If you want to enter into the rich church life then you overcome these ones, you have to follow the Lord:

7 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh! 8 And if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed or halt, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 And if thine eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire. 10 See that ye despise not one of these little ones: for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven. 12 How think ye? if any man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and go unto the mountains, and seek that which goeth astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth over it more than over the ninety and nine which have not gone astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

As you can see, according to the Lord's word, these experiences "must needs be that they come". Therefore I don't like the term "degraded" church, rather I prefer "necessary experiences to mature into Christ"

10-12-2016, 05:47 AM	#4
ZNPaaneah Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7,105	Re: The church in Pergamum 12And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These things saith he that hath the sharp two-edged sword: 13I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s throne is; and thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith, even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there some that hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also some that hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans in like manner. 16Repent therefore; or else I come to thee quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knoweth but he that receiveth it. This is the church where we can really see what Witness Lee refers to as “degraded Christianity”. You have Balaam, a false prophet, teaching the believers to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. You have still more who hold the teachings of the Nicolaitans (which are in like manner to Balaam’s teachings). They are dwelling where Satan’s throne is. Faithful brothers like Antipas are being killed in their midst. But here is the thing, if you want the hidden manna you need to overcome the things in Pergamum. If you want a white stone with a new name written on it you need to overcome the things in Pergamum. It seems to me obvious that this “white stone with a new name” refers to the children of Israel crossing the Jordan river and entering into the good land. So is this church really degraded, or does our entrance into the rich church life take place when we overcome these things? If you think of these things as “degraded” then you don’t want anything to do with them. But if you think of them as something that you must overcome in order to be fully matured it is a very different attitude. Who is Balaam? He is the NT meme for a false prophet. Did he speak the word of God? Yes. Did he have genuine experiences of God? Yes. Were his prophecies concerning Israel false? No. So then, what makes him a false prophet? He was motivated by money, a house full of gold to be precise. He was willing to sell out to Balak to teach him how to stumble the children of Israel with idolatry and fornication. So then, how does he do it? How do you teach the children of Israel to eat things sacrificed to idols while at the same time speaking God's word? 1. You build a true teaching on the MOTA, showing from the Old Testament types that a prophet like Moses would come, Jesus. However you place the context of this teaching about NT ministries and let the naive babes in Christ come to the erroneous conclusion that they have discovered some secret principle that at any given time the Lord is only moving through one genuine ministry, the one with the vision for the age. You don't say it in those words, you let Ray Graver and others like him say it. Your protestations make it sound not like a disagreement with Ray but that you didn't want it revealed who you were. Then, bingo, you are now the MOTA, another Jesus, and all the churches are now "indebted" to your ministry. Partaking of your ministry is akin to eating things sacrificed to idols. 2. Problem is that your Balaam's sins, his actions are going to cause confusion. So you build this doctrine of deification. Because of all the time you have spent in the Bible, in the word, at the feet of Watchman Nee, etc he has become "deified". Everyone under his ministry will be deified too, only not to the same extent. So the reason you don't understand and have questions is that he is deified and you have not been deified as much. If that doesn't shut you up then remember, a question mark looks like a serpent. Finally, if you are still going to ask questions we can get rid of you like we did with so many others. Does Balaam preach the gospel? Sort of, it is a different gospel, but it is a gospel of being deified, of being the elite Christians, and the gospel of being the only ones to know who the MOTA is. We also have the Nicolaitans which are described as being "in like manner" to Balaam in that they also cast a stumbling block before the children of God. This tells us a lot about what is going on. You have two approaches to the church life described by Jesus in Matt 18, one approach we seek out the lost sheep, we bring them back to the fold, we rejoice. The other is you place a stumbling block before the lambs of God, they are sacrificed to Satan, God's enemy. If you want to enter into the rich church life then you overcome these ones, you have to follow the Lord: 7 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh! 8 And if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed or halt, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 And if thine eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire. 10 See that ye despise not one of these little ones: for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven. 12 How think ye? if any man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and go unto the mountains, and seek that which goeth astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth over it more than over the ninety and nine which have not gone astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. As you can see, according to the Lord's word, these experiences "must needs be that they come". Therefore I don't like the term "degraded" church, rather I prefer "necessary experiences to mature into Christ"