[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's not true at all.
The New Testament is filled with verses delineating organizational structure with elders and deacons. There were also many gifted ones named apostles, prophets, shepherds, evangelists, teachers. What do you think they all did in the meetings of the church? Sit in the back row and sleep?

So I ask you, where are these gifted ones in the organised denominations today? Paul desired everyone to desire gifts and especially to prophesy (1 Corinthians 14). So where is the opportunity for a non-theologically trained and unqualified person to use their gifts such as prophesy and teaching in a 1 hour Sunday service?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you have any idea how narrow-minded and skewed your definition of "functioning" is? If someone stands up and reads a line from a footnote, you shout and proclaim that all the members can function, and then simultaneously you condemn the body of Christ for being dead .. Because they can't stand up in their assembly and read a footnote by WL.

My Bible tells me that in the body of Christ every member is needed, everyone has gifts, and we cannot say we don't need anyone.

On that basis the system of only a few theologically qualified ones providing a service to a congregation Sunday in and Sunday, must be rejected.

That sort of system arose in the early middle ages and did not originate in the New Testament.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Oh the hypocrisy! Why do you think so many of us have left? You have simply replaced the so-called "one-man-speaking" with the "speaking-of-one-man." That is no improvement at all! At least the former speak from the word of God.

Umm, the majority of churches they don't speak from the word of God but from the Sunday service sheet or prayer book. It is like that in the majors - Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran. What makes this somewhat different from people merely reading footnotes in LSM, is that there is no freedom for a member to pick and choose what they want to say from the book, and the same service is followed every Sunday (there are some variations of course, but usually minor). Since this is the majority then my statement that "Christianity is degraded" is no less true.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I've been to many churches, including the LC's. There are always going to be some who sit silently in the meetings, and probably come only on Sundays. I saw that in all the LC's I visited. Who are you to categorically condemn them all? How do you know what they believe or how they function in the body of Christ? I saw far too many showy performances in LSM trainings to believe for a moment that they had the market on spiritual reality and functioning.

Ohio, when you say "always going to be some who sit silently" I don't think you comprehend the situation. Every Sunday, every week, every year, in Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, which is the majority of Christianity, they hold a service, the Priest says the same thing every Sunday from the same prayer book. The congregation respond in the same manner at the same time when the Priest instructs them to. The only time the congregation can "function" is when they sing the hymns or respond to the rote prayers and responses written in the service books. And you say LSM is a cult? Well the average Sunday service looks more like a cult to me. The same order of processions, rituals, the robes, the candles and other things in the church, just enhance that cult-like effect.

Pentecostal churches have more freedoms but they are still tightly controlled by the pastor. I have friends who were worship leaders who were instructed by the pastor when they could raise their hands in worship and when they shouldn't. On the flip side, I have also been to Presbyterian churches where the pastor forbade anyone from closing their eyes and raising their hands during worship because it was too "Pentecostal".

So I am confident to stand by my statement that "Christianity is degraded". Because the majority of churches in the world today are of the sort I have just described.

If you have a problem with such generalisation, I will not say 90% are degraded or 20% are degraded because it doesn't make sense to talk like that. If our body is sick, even though it may affect only one part of our body, we will say "I am sick". We do not say "20% of my body is sick".