Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical
I will try and explain the difference between ground and foundation, in the way that Lee uses it.
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Wow, I must be really slow because you have completely lost me again. Please have patience with me, but here is what threw me.
1. Are you aware that the "Church in New York City" is not called the The Church in New York City but rather "The Christian Fellowship Center"? This is because it is illegal in New York law to call themselves the "Church in New York". Jesus is above all rule and authority, He has been given as Head over all to the church, but they are more than willing to throw out the ground of the church doctrine and take the name "Christian Fellowship Center". Why? Money. They do not need to incorporate to own a meeting hall, but if they are going to keep their tax exempt status and they must. This would be a small price to pay when you compare it those in Rome who were willing to die rather than sign a "Genius" pledge to the Emperor.
2. It seems to me that you are saying that we must worship in Jerusalem, and I thought that Jesus said that the hour now is that we will worship in Spirit and Truth? Jesus doesn't argue with the woman at the well, she is correct when she says that this rule is imposed on them by the Jews, but His point is that in the New Testament this all changes. Why isn't this "change" incorporated in the ground of the church doctrine?
3. Are we having fellowship? How can this be, we are all in different cities? Today there are millions of Christians involved with their fellowship online, in cyberspace. There is no contradiction to the Lord's word "wherever two or three are gathered together in my name" or with His word that the "hour now is when the true worshippers will worship in spirit and truth". But there is a very big contradiction with Watchman Nee and Witness Lee's assertion that we are limited by time and space to meet in one city at one time. That is patently false.
4. The ground that I am standing on in my worship of the Lord was purchased with Jesus blood. Are you saying he purchased Queens, NY? If so why do people in NY vote for Trump or Clinton to be president? There are no elections in the kingdom, Jesus is Lord. But the world does not yet recognize that. The worldly cities are still under the dominion of Satan, which is why he could tempt Jesus with them. When Jesus died on the cross He paid the price for us, not for the worldly cities. The "ground" that He owns is not the worldly cities, it is the ground He purchased with His blood.
5. If Jesus purchased New York City with his blood on the Cross then why did the boundaries change when NY and Brooklyn merged? This is not trivial, city boundaries, somewhere in the world, change frequently, maybe every week the boundaries are changing somewhere. So the heavenly kingdom gets jerked around every time some city board comes together to purchase or sell land? Why?
6. The whole thing gets so complicated, I was in Taipei and we had 23 meeting halls, 23 different glasses of water, yet that was fine. Why is the Lord's word "wherever two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in the midst" insufficient? My point is that the real issue of the ground of the church is that "the apostle" gets to appoint and fire elders. Who is this apostle? Witness Lee. As long as the elders of a congregation report to him and send LSM money they will negotiate on every other point. Can't use the name "church in NYC", no problem. You need to merge saints who live in Odessa and Midland into one church, no problem. You want to move people from one church to another at the whim of the "apostle" no problem (i.e. they don't belong to a church, they belong to the apostle). Home meetings are not genuine churches unless the elders submit to Witness Lee, in which case they are -- I was in Odessa for a year while we met in homes before we moved into a meeting hall). The ground of the church doctrine deals with divisions, until of course it creates them. I have a letter where LSM refused to come to the congregation I meet with and present their ministry to them. The two congregations meet within a mile of each other, one has a meeting hall with less than 400 regular attendees (what is commonly referred to as "the church in NYC" but is legally referred to as "The Christian Fellowship Center", the other where I meet has more than 1,000 regular attendees, they go by the name of place where they meet, but not "Church in NY" as that is illegal).
7. I accept your analogy of the 23 glasses of water and that a gathering of believers (a church) is comparable to a large vessel that holds these believers. What I don't understand is Witness Lee's doctrine of the ground of the church. I get that we should be diligent to keep the oneness, I just don't get how Witness Lee's doctrine helps. To me, the vessel that holds us all together is in Ephesians:
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.
I will meet with anyone who embraces these seven ones. On the other hand if you tell me that the basis of your oneness is that Witness Lee and Watchman Nee are "Ministers of the Age" after the likeness of Moses then I reject that as "another Jesus". If you tell me that the basis of your oneness is that "man becomes God" then I reject that as an idol which is contrary to "one God". As a result receiving Witness Lee's ministry is "eating things sacrificed unto idols". If you tell me that you have to meet according to Witness Lee's Old Testament teaching of "the ground of the church" then I ask who are you? You have made yourself a judge of the law to love God and love your neighbor, not a doer of the law.