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Hope · 01-02-2009, 11:35 AM

Dear Brother YPO534,

You are obviously thinking and seeking to find a more perfect way. Too bad I do not have the privilege of knowing you and being able to fellowship face to face. I am sure you could stimulate me to more love for Christ.

It is very instructive to study church history and learn from those days. What would I have done had I been living in post reformation England or the hills of Albi? I simply have no answer. I am living today in the USA. I must work through things in the here and now. I do not have the answer for the believers of that era and I hesitate to take the position of their advisor or judge.

The New Testament does not serve well as a manual. It is not a book of operation. We Americans are trained to plan our work and to work our plan. Rick Warren’s book “The Purpose Driven Church” matches the way we think. He takes his approach right out of modern American Business. He states that the senior pastor is like the CEO. Many like this approach as we are success oriented and want to see our church be a successful organization and do much good for society and the kingdom of God. I am sure that 98% of their motives are good. I own and run a business. I want it to be successful and do a lot of good for my clients. Do we always achieve our objectives? Of course not but we try.

There has been a lot of discussion about what model can work in today’s world. The New Testament has been discussed from the perspective of what is prescriptive and what is only descriptive. I would say there is very little other than the basic facts of the faith that is prescriptive. Such as, Jesus was the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary. He lived a sinless life and died a redemptive death on the cross. He rose from the dead and ascended to the heavens and sits on the right hand of God the Father. He will return in glory and receive all who have believed in Him. They will dwell with Him forever. There are some other truths regarding the three persons of the Godhead and the nature of the believers. Such as we are the Body of Christ and members in particular and members of one another etc. (I do not claim this short list is inclusive but is only intended to be illustrative.)

These kind of prescriptive matters apply rigidly to all time in all places. We cannot compromise on them. The fact that Jesus died for our sins is true in post reformation England and in 21th century America.

Now the details of the Christian life and the church practice are not so easily nailed down. How we should react to different conditions are not prescribed. We do know that there were prophets and teachers in the church at Antioch. We know that at least once they were together ministering to the Lord and fasting. We know there were five. It seems that none were from Antioch. We do not have any details regarding what “ministering to the Lord” consisted of. We know the Holy Spirit spoke to them but we have no details of exactly what is the procedure for having the Holy Spirit speak. We do not know who the elders were in the church at Antioch. If fact, we do not even know if there were any elders in the church at Antioch. Yet we are told that the believers were first called Christians in Antioch.

Another example of the prescriptive vs descriptive dilemna is found in Revelation chapters 1-3. How about the mystery of the seven stars? We know the seven stars are the messengers of the churches. How about more details than just that they are in the right hand of the Son of Man who is walking in the midst of the seven golden lampstands which are the seven churches. I would like some better prescriptive details! What are we to do?

I can never forget Watchman Nee's warning in his foreword of “The Normal Christian Church Life,” aka “Concerning our Mission.” He declared that he feared those who would take the book as a manual. I fear those who would take “one church-one city” as a model or as an anti-model.

I am very happy that this forum has moved in the direction of many personal testimonies of the personal pursuits of following the Lord and seeking to live the Christian life and also of the various posters desire to relate to the members of the Body of Christ in a proper way that would bring glory to the head, Christ and be a building up to the believers. I wonder why none seem to have the exact prescriptive model. I have not seen any destroy the notion that the church in the city is at least a descriptive model you can find in the New Testament record. I have seen plenty of discussion that the LSM/LC version of the church in the city is a joke. I contend that it is nothing but a relic from their past and has no more to do with their current practice than zebras and lions.

While I seek to be kind and express the love of Christ to each and every believer I meet, I am not one who desires to tolerate. Toleration is not longsuffering. We must know the difference. I have said good-bye to more than just the LSM/LC. Some practices and persons just cannot be tolerated. (Please read, Revelation chapter two.)

In conclusion for this post, all I can say is we all must individually give an account to the Lord for how we live and practice in our own particular set of circumstances. Yet there are certainly absolutes we should not violate. There is a high calling we should strive to attain. I want to be an approved follower of the Lamb. To get into just the above few sentences would require hours and hours of fellowship. I am up for it. How about a retreat to the mountains of NC or the coast?

Hope, Don Rutledge

A believer who is seeking to be a true disciple.

John 8:31-32, Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. "

01-02-2009, 11:35 AM	#285
Hope Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Durham, North Carolina Posts: 313	Re: The Ground Of The Church Dear Brother YPO534, You are obviously thinking and seeking to find a more perfect way. Too bad I do not have the privilege of knowing you and being able to fellowship face to face. I am sure you could stimulate me to more love for Christ. It is very instructive to study church history and learn from those days. What would I have done had I been living in post reformation England or the hills of Albi? I simply have no answer. I am living today in the USA. I must work through things in the here and now. I do not have the answer for the believers of that era and I hesitate to take the position of their advisor or judge. The New Testament does not serve well as a manual. It is not a book of operation. We Americans are trained to plan our work and to work our plan. Rick Warren’s book “The Purpose Driven Church” matches the way we think. He takes his approach right out of modern American Business. He states that the senior pastor is like the CEO. Many like this approach as we are success oriented and want to see our church be a successful organization and do much good for society and the kingdom of God. I am sure that 98% of their motives are good. I own and run a business. I want it to be successful and do a lot of good for my clients. Do we always achieve our objectives? Of course not but we try. There has been a lot of discussion about what model can work in today’s world. The New Testament has been discussed from the perspective of what is prescriptive and what is only descriptive. I would say there is very little other than the basic facts of the faith that is prescriptive. Such as, Jesus was the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary. He lived a sinless life and died a redemptive death on the cross. He rose from the dead and ascended to the heavens and sits on the right hand of God the Father. He will return in glory and receive all who have believed in Him. They will dwell with Him forever. There are some other truths regarding the three persons of the Godhead and the nature of the believers. Such as we are the Body of Christ and members in particular and members of one another etc. (I do not claim this short list is inclusive but is only intended to be illustrative.) These kind of prescriptive matters apply rigidly to all time in all places. We cannot compromise on them. The fact that Jesus died for our sins is true in post reformation England and in 21th century America. Now the details of the Christian life and the church practice are not so easily nailed down. How we should react to different conditions are not prescribed. We do know that there were prophets and teachers in the church at Antioch. We know that at least once they were together ministering to the Lord and fasting. We know there were five. It seems that none were from Antioch. We do not have any details regarding what “ministering to the Lord” consisted of. We know the Holy Spirit spoke to them but we have no details of exactly what is the procedure for having the Holy Spirit speak. We do not know who the elders were in the church at Antioch. If fact, we do not even know if there were any elders in the church at Antioch. Yet we are told that the believers were first called Christians in Antioch. Another example of the prescriptive vs descriptive dilemna is found in Revelation chapters 1-3. How about the mystery of the seven stars? We know the seven stars are the messengers of the churches. How about more details than just that they are in the right hand of the Son of Man who is walking in the midst of the seven golden lampstands which are the seven churches. I would like some better prescriptive details! What are we to do? I can never forget Watchman Nee's warning in his foreword of “The Normal Christian Church Life,” aka “Concerning our Mission.” He declared that he feared those who would take the book as a manual. I fear those who would take “one church-one city” as a model or as an anti-model. I am very happy that this forum has moved in the direction of many personal testimonies of the personal pursuits of following the Lord and seeking to live the Christian life and also of the various posters desire to relate to the members of the Body of Christ in a proper way that would bring glory to the head, Christ and be a building up to the believers. I wonder why none seem to have the exact prescriptive model. I have not seen any destroy the notion that the church in the city is at least a descriptive model you can find in the New Testament record. I have seen plenty of discussion that the LSM/LC version of the church in the city is a joke. I contend that it is nothing but a relic from their past and has no more to do with their current practice than zebras and lions. While I seek to be kind and express the love of Christ to each and every believer I meet, I am not one who desires to tolerate. Toleration is not longsuffering. We must know the difference. I have said good-bye to more than just the LSM/LC. Some practices and persons just cannot be tolerated. (Please read, Revelation chapter two.) In conclusion for this post, all I can say is we all must individually give an account to the Lord for how we live and practice in our own particular set of circumstances. Yet there are certainly absolutes we should not violate. There is a high calling we should strive to attain. I want to be an approved follower of the Lamb. To get into just the above few sentences would require hours and hours of fellowship. I am up for it. How about a retreat to the mountains of NC or the coast? Hope, Don Rutledge A believer who is seeking to be a true disciple. John 8:31-32, Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. "