[Hope]

Quote from Oregon.
All the believers in any locality being the one body should not be just a spiritual reality but should be practiced as such.
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My question Unto referred to.
But is there any need to practically practice a spiritual reality?

Unto, I was asking a question based on the quote from Oregon.

I also recognize that I do put out phrases and thoughts that are not always that clear. Unfortunately I think that is a weakness of trying to communicate by a blog. But it is certainly better than any alternative other than being face to face. Thank you for your response.

Let me help you out here. Let us assume that the 12th chapter of Romans is real. Do you believe, Rom 12:3, God has allotted to each a measure of faith. I am assured that you do. Then how about Rom 12:4, For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function. So there is a spiritual reality that each believer has a measure of faith. Then based on that spiritual fact each member has a function and the functions differ. If this is true (and it is), is there anything wrong with believers seeking to practically recognize the measure in each member and encourage all to function according to their particular function. Or is it enough to just let well enough alone and go with the current situation as it is and trust that everyone has a good heart and do not make waves.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

“Practically practice”? Say that three time real fast. I take it that this is at least slightly rhetorical?
Firstly, I think we may encounter some resisting and frustration among us on what constitutes “a spiritual reality”. Secondly, one man’s “practically practice” may be another man’s “religious traditions”. To put a little finer point on this – when we come together as Christians, what is it that makes us “one”. Why should I come and meet with you? Why should I not meet with the other fine and outstanding Christian group a couple of miles down the path? Furthermore, why are you not meeting with that fine and outstanding Christian group in the first place? I think yu’all see me working here….

I like all the above questions. They should be asked! To come up with answers would require some serious prayer, scripture searching and honest self examination.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Again, I would bring up the highly hypothetical situation of the scripture writing apostles being dropped into any large, 21st Century city. Where would they go to meet with “the church in Anytown”? No need to raise your hand and shout the answer… I know what you are thinking already… MY CHURCH! My Church! Everybody is going to say my church. I would surely love to have Peter, Paul, John and all the others come to my church. Don’t worry, we can find a few extra chairs. Here’s the rub though…. I would hope that they would approve of the way that we “practically practice” the “spiritual realities” in my church. I would hope that they like the worship songs we sing…I hope we don’t sing too many of them…or too few…or too loud….or too soft. I hope the teaching pastor/elder does not use too few passages from Paul’s writings…or too few from Peter or John’s….or too many….….

I am sure that the apostles would be more than a little befuddled. How could they have ever anticipated the situation of 21th century American Christianity?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

… well let me put this another way…. “The real problems came when Lee and his followers claim that they were the only ones who got it right, and everybody else was wrong”. Witness Lee and his followers created yet another division in the Body of Christ by insisting on “practically practicing” his brand of the Local Church. He called it “the vision of the church”. He called it “the church-life”. He called it “the Lord’s Recovery”. He called it “The Church”. Now, many of Witness Lee’s followers still call the religious system he invented all these great and glorious names. Yet aren’t they only exercising their right to practically practice a spiritual reality? Right?….….

Not exactly. They are practicing something but so are the Roman Catholics. The problem with the Catholics is not that they are practicing something but they have it wrong. I once heard the Pope himself in Saint Peters Basilica give an excellent message on the one Body of Christ from Ephesians. His words were very good but everything else was off. Many of the posters say that the LSM has declared they want to practice oneness but they have actually created more division. AND I AGREE!!! My point is that to seek to practice a practical oneness with all believers is not the problem but the problem is what the LSM has practiced under the name of oneness.


Second Question:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Apparently the Corinthians had a problem with division. There was also a problem of gross sin among them, which is why he urged them to remove the sinful person from among them – he did not want them to be “one” with this sinful person, for this was polluting the whole church. They also had a problem of listening to false teachers. He warned them that when he came that he would “find out, not the words of those who are arrogant but their power” (1Cor 4:19) Only the real Words of God are powerful – false teachings are weak and powerless. Again, I would point out that according to the apostle Paul, [U]the only legitimate reasons for Christians to separate themselves from other Christians are gross sin and false teachings.

I like the last sentence of this paragraph. You are right on.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

You quoted 1 Cor 1:18: “I hear that divisions exist among you”….but you left out the next verse which completes the apostle’s thought here - verse 19: “For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you”. What did Paul mean here by “approved”? I would say that when taken in context of his letters to the Corinthians, approved means being approved in practice and teaching. If the elders and prominent members there in Corinth continued to allow that sinful brother/sister to remain among them and continued to allow false teachers to wield influence, I do not think he would have had a problem with some breaking away, and then he would surely considered those saints as “approved”, even though they divided from the church. Of course that would have been the most drastic and damaging scenario, and we know from the second letter that things apparently got straightened out with that sinful brother/sister.

Thank you for bringing out verse 19 and the reference to some being approved. Several posts ago I asked about this matter of some being approved. There was a flurry of posts which seemed to be saying we should not worry about the condition of Christianity around us. Maybe I was at that time getting the message wrong but I do agree that we are not called to just put up with anything or any condition but can legitimately seek to be “those who are approved.”

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hope, you have stated you have “real problems” with certain Christians…. Fine, no problemo! Nobody is forcing you to agree and/or approve of what they say or do, much less meet with them. Sorry to bring this up, but this was/is one of the major problems with the Local Church – one was/is virtually forced to swallow all sorts of things and stay put, no matter what. That is NOT practical oneness – that is forced behavior and forced oneness, and it is this very kind of dynamic that gets groups placed in the “cult” category. Admittedly, some of this is a culture issue. Forcing people to stay where they do not feel comfortable, or feel that they are not in a healthy situation for themselves or their family, may very well have been acceptable in early 20th Century China or in mid-20th Century Taiwan, but it really flies in the face of most individualistic, freedom loving Westerners. Again, sorry for the long answer, but I wanted to spit out my view of the “practical practice of a spiritual reality”.

Forget what was okay in 20th Century China or the freedom loving West. We need to have discernment. The Church in Ephesus, in Revelation chapter two, was commended for testing apostles and rejecting the false ones. I should have used my discernment when meeting with the LSM/LC. I can say that I was not driven out but eventually used my discernment and the plain scriptures to follow the Lord away from that organization. I did not follow my freedom loving western culture.


Unto, again thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Hope, Don Rutledge