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aron · 10-22-2008, 07:50 AM

There seem to be some interesting attempts by the writers of the gospels to separate John the Baptist from Jesus.

In Luke chapter 3, John is shut up in prison (verse 20) before Jesus is baptised (verse 21). If we didn't have the other gospels, we'd conclude someone other than John baptized Jesus. John never mentions Jesus, merely giving exhortations to the assembled throng, speaking concerning "the salvation of God" (verse 6), and making a general reference to the "coming Christ" (vv 16, 17).

Why is this notable? Because there is a story in Luke chapter 1 where John's mother Elizabeth visits Jesus' mother, Mary, and the infant (John) within her womb leaped at the presence of the infant (Jesus) within Mary's womb. The two relatives remained together for three months (verse 56). So, I wonder, did John the Baptist and Jesus ever meet again, before the fateful day when John baptised Jesus, and beheld the Spirit descending from heaven? According to Luke's telling, it seems someone else baptized Jesus! They never met again!

Of course, this is not true. We have the accounts from Matthew and Mark.

But I raise the point because the fourth gospel has some interesting remarks by John the Baptist, spoken twice.

"And I did not know Him, but in order that He might be manifested to Israel, for this reason I came baptizing in water. And John testified, saying, I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He abode upon Him. And I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water, He said to me, He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and abiding upon Him, this is He who baptizes in the Holy Spirit." ~John 1: vv. 31-33.

I'd always felt that John must have known Jesus was "the One", even in premonition, before Jesus' presentation to Israel, due to the closeness of their families, and John's clear recognition (pre-birth!!) of God's anointing, but here it seems clear that John was blind of this fact. It seems that he did what Samuel did when anointing David in I Samuel chapter 16: anoint everyone "blindly" and waited for the Spirit to arrive and announce God's choice.

Yet how do we square this with the record in Matthew chapter 3, where John tries to prevent Jesus from being baptized by him, instead saying he should be baptized by Jesus (vv. 13-16)? The different accounts of the coincidence of the ministries of Jesus and John are difficult to reconcile.

This difficulty continues with the call of the disciples, which I hope to address soon. What I am working toward is the idea of the disciples, and "what did they know and when did they know it" in the record, both in the Gospels, Acts of Apostles, and beyond. And John the Baptist is not only the forerunner of Jesus, but also the first "discipler" of some of them, including Andrew, Peter's brother, and quite possibly also John the son of Zebedee. So I am attempting to discern their mindset, their conceptual "package", that they had as they entered into fellowship. What did they see and when did they see it? What were they blind to and why? And when did this blindness leave them, as they authored the "divine record"?

"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now..." ~John 16:12

I am trying to critically examine the Spirit's guiding the disciples (verse 13)into all the reality (truth, understanding) of who Jesus was, and what His words meant. I think that revelation is a slow process of accretion, of sifting data, of careful reflection. There are "Wow!" moments, but there also is lots of hard, slow, work involved; it's a process, not an event. That is one reason I treasure John's writings so much. They seem more analytical, versus the earlier accounts which were concerned with just getting the facts out there.

Peace to all and thanks for bearing with me as I do my own analysis.

10-22-2008, 07:50 AM	#8
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,631	John the Baptist There seem to be some interesting attempts by the writers of the gospels to separate John the Baptist from Jesus. In Luke chapter 3, John is shut up in prison (verse 20) before Jesus is baptised (verse 21). If we didn't have the other gospels, we'd conclude someone other than John baptized Jesus. John never mentions Jesus, merely giving exhortations to the assembled throng, speaking concerning "the salvation of God" (verse 6), and making a general reference to the "coming Christ" (vv 16, 17). Why is this notable? Because there is a story in Luke chapter 1 where John's mother Elizabeth visits Jesus' mother, Mary, and the infant (John) within her womb leaped at the presence of the infant (Jesus) within Mary's womb. The two relatives remained together for three months (verse 56). So, I wonder, did John the Baptist and Jesus ever meet again, before the fateful day when John baptised Jesus, and beheld the Spirit descending from heaven? According to Luke's telling, it seems someone else baptized Jesus! They never met again! Of course, this is not true. We have the accounts from Matthew and Mark. But I raise the point because the fourth gospel has some interesting remarks by John the Baptist, spoken twice. "And I did not know Him, but in order that He might be manifested to Israel, for this reason I came baptizing in water. And John testified, saying, I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He abode upon Him. And I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water, He said to me, He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and abiding upon Him, this is He who baptizes in the Holy Spirit." ~John 1: vv. 31-33. I'd always felt that John must have known Jesus was "the One", even in premonition, before Jesus' presentation to Israel, due to the closeness of their families, and John's clear recognition (pre-birth!!) of God's anointing, but here it seems clear that John was blind of this fact. It seems that he did what Samuel did when anointing David in I Samuel chapter 16: anoint everyone "blindly" and waited for the Spirit to arrive and announce God's choice. Yet how do we square this with the record in Matthew chapter 3, where John tries to prevent Jesus from being baptized by him, instead saying he should be baptized by Jesus (vv. 13-16)? The different accounts of the coincidence of the ministries of Jesus and John are difficult to reconcile. This difficulty continues with the call of the disciples, which I hope to address soon. What I am working toward is the idea of the disciples, and "what did they know and when did they know it" in the record, both in the Gospels, Acts of Apostles, and beyond. And John the Baptist is not only the forerunner of Jesus, but also the first "discipler" of some of them, including Andrew, Peter's brother, and quite possibly also John the son of Zebedee. So I am attempting to discern their mindset, their conceptual "package", that they had as they entered into fellowship. What did they see and when did they see it? What were they blind to and why? And when did this blindness leave them, as they authored the "divine record"? "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now..." ~John 16:12 I am trying to critically examine the Spirit's guiding the disciples (verse 13)into all the reality (truth, understanding) of who Jesus was, and what His words meant. I think that revelation is a slow process of accretion, of sifting data, of careful reflection. There are "Wow!" moments, but there also is lots of hard, slow, work involved; it's a process, not an event. That is one reason I treasure John's writings so much. They seem more analytical, versus the earlier accounts which were concerned with just getting the facts out there. Peace to all and thanks for bearing with me as I do my own analysis.