Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
What I said is exactly what John said, only in different words.
"To hold" is to believe, to obey, to keep. The scripture uses a host of expressions.
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I didn't ask the question because I didn't think you knew. Or that it was some challenge to you.
I asked it because it has been suggested that the key to real knowledge is this undefined "experience of Christ" when the Bible provides a different way. It does not seem to be about "encounters with God" or "simply enjoying his presence." Instead it is in the facts of living life in obedience to what has been provided as the way to live. Belief was almost always tied to action — generally to something like "go and sin no more." He gathered a multitude onto the side of a mountain and spoke for what we have carved into 3 chapters. It is entirely about the nature of the life of the people of the kingdom of God. None of it looks like anything that has been provided as reasons that we need some vague term to stand in for just knowing that you are in the presence of God.
In fact, the only place where there is something mentioned about "spiritual" stuff is where some declared that they had prophesied, cast out demons, and performed miracles in the name of the Lord. And they were turned away.
And it ends with the declaration that doing all that had been said was like building a house upon the rock. Having a close, personal relationship was not on the list. I do not dismiss the idea. But even the mantra of modern evangelicalism/fundamentalism that centers on the personal relationship is a construct built on few actual statements and an overlay that adds a need to everything else (sort of like rereading everything in light of Lee's version of God's economy). "Believe in me and obey my words" becomes "have a personal relationship with me so that you can obey my words." It sounds too good to be argued against. But it is not there. And so Igzy can come along and complain about how he has observed what he thinks is hollow obedience and lack of outward joy (just like we learned to do in the LCM).
And we still like to talk about how we can't just do anything. We need something else to be able to do it.
Peter said otherwise. Paul said otherwise. Jesus said to hear and obey.
We say work on your personal relationship and then you can do it.
Obedience is preferred to worship. And we still mock those in whom we see more obedience than our kind of worship.
I honestly think that the whole thing is upside down in our minds. We are chasing an alternative to tongues as a spiritual high. Or at least a spiritual experience rather than practical obedience. The ones who are blessed are those who are poor in spirit, who mourn, who are meek, who hunger and thirst for righteousness (in life, not just in some spiritual way), who show mercy, who are peacemakers, and who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness. Not those who seek spiritual experiences of being "in the presence of Christ" or (go down the list of "experiences" that are listed in Lee's book). Our experiences should be of this life lived in obedience to what Christ commanded.
We think we have achieved righteousness, peace, joy, etc., when we wall ourselves off from the world and seek these experiences. But those are only truly found in our living in obedience, not in private or even public "worship." The Bible does not support the construct that is the bulk of what has been called the "experience of Christ" by so many. And so they deflect and ask for proof that they might not be right. I say show me proof that you are right. That you are not just making up yet another dodge to obedience as the key rather than "spirituality."
And I quit talking specifically to Ohio a long time ago.
And I see the fight against even thinking about it as evidence of the remains of a sickness.