[Thankful Jane]

Dear Toledo,

I am sorry for taking so long to respond to your last post.

Originally Posted by Toledo

So it's okay to make a general slur and insult on a wide group of people, then claim it doesn't apply to some of the individuals you included...? I'm sure you didn't mean this as ungraciously as it sounds.

I don’t know what you mean by my “general slur and insult on a wide group of people.” I have a hard time responding to things like this without knowing exactly what you are referring to.

Originally Posted by Toledo

To be fair, I was very much a young brother while WL was still alive. I had very few dealings directly with him. Except for keeping the rules of his various trainings, I cannot say that he ever made any particular demands on me.

Originally Posted by Toledo

And, yes, I appreciated his teachings, even as I appreciated the teachings of Lewis Sperry Chafer that were remarkably similar.

I, too, was young while I was under his ministry and I never had any direct dealings with Lee either, but I did submit to his control through the leaders where I was. The example of Lee’s training which you mentioned is a good one. W. Lee called it “training” and told us that this was different from the church. By this it seems he found a way to legitimize our submission to his dictates. His public behavior at the trainings was less than Christian on many occasions as he mercilessly berated people in front of others. Our willing submission eventually carried over into the “church.”

I sat quietly and watched at the trainings, praying I would never find myself in his gun sights. Of course, we were free to not attend—but only if we didn’t care about being “absolute” and if we didn’t mind facing the raised eyebrows of our vigilant leaders who were “watching over” the flock. On one hand, I didn’t want to come under their scrutiny, so I paid the price to go and submitted to the legitimized abuse. On the other, I also believed what I had been taught by our leaders--that God would meet us there and that WL had God’s up-to-date speaking. How could I miss out on that? Everyone else I knew who went to the trainings believed the same way. If they didn’t believe this, I never heard them say so.

I assume you submitted to his training rules, which included not leaving our seats before break time. If God himself had told you to get up and go to the restroom when your bladder was bursting, would you have done so? Pardon the graphic question, but it makes the point. What kind of Christian would hold that many people in bondage to their chairs under penalty of rebuke (or a mark against you that could lead to expulsion from the training) if they had to get up and go? I knew of some who were on the verge of being violently ill from waiting for the clock to move to the position which allowed them to get out of their seat and run for the restroom. I found myself in that condition a number of times and once I was unable to get through the long restroom line before our break time was up between morning meetings, and I had to return to my chair for an additional hour of torture. This was Christian treatment? I used to hope and pray that my assigned seat would be near the restroom!

I’m glad to hear that you read other materials. Did you ever share L. S. Chafer’s teachings in the meetings of the Local Church or mention him publicly (while still in an LSM church)?

Originally Posted by Toledo

I cannot recall ever being asked to do anything against God's word. However, I realize that time is both a balm and an anesthetic -- maybe I have forgotten or have hidden away some lapse of conscience. Do you, perhaps, have an example that may refresh my memory. I am not at all sure of what you mean.

Did you sign the letter with approx. 400 other elders that stated that the leading of W. Lee was “indispensable to our oneness”? That would be to do something against God’s word. Only one person is indispensable to Christian oneness and it isn’t W. Lee. Also, did you support or participate in the lawsuit endeavors?

Thankful Jane