Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek
Yes, well, I'm not claiming that I know that there are no Christians, and I'm certainly not claiming that I am one. But, I think, one can find a lot of evidence to support the idea that there are very few if any if we use the New Testament as a standard. The usual pattern is for someone to come out and make Christian claims which seem shiny and new until you peel of the superficial layer of Christian paint and find out a little more of their life and see that they are pretty close to the gutter where the rest of us live. Then they confess that they are sinners. But any mob boss or terrorist or prostitute could say the same thing. So, where are the New Testament Christians?
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I think that there is a disconnect in here somewhere. The verse that was quoted concerning being a follower has a context. The context is of a rabbi with his followers (disciples) that will learn his teachings and spread them. Everyone who comes to "follow" those teachings is not necessarily a follower in the sense of those who literally trail behind the rabbi are.
I think that the disconnect is that we take the references to a kingdom of priests to an unsupported extreme. While the average Israelite prayed and brought sacrifices, the priest was, at least at some level, a mediator for the people. But we no longer have a mediator that is strictly of our kind (human without divinity). We clearly have access to God.
But from the very beginning, Jesus created circles of followers. There was the 12 (and probably the three within that). Then the 70. And then the others. We don't know how the whole thing broke down. But when he went among the people, he did not preach following, but belief and obedience. When some came wanting to follow, then he turned up the rhetoric to see if they were really ready to follow. "Go and sell all." "Let the dead bury the dead." And so on.
Surely we all have a part in the spread of the gospel. But a lot of our part is in being people who live in a manner that is worthy of consideration. And we do need to have something to say when asked. But I think there is a tendency for us to think that we are either preachers, missionaries, or at least giving away all of our free time to the "work of ministry" in a big way, and since we do not, we feel like failures and allow ourselves to miss our calling.
And that is where you correctly point out the number who continually fail and just confess they are sinners. Yes, any mob boss or prostitute can say that. What should be the difference is the will and desire, fueled by the Spirit, to reduce the sins and have less cause for repentance.
But even for the best among us, we will sin until the day we die. Anyone telling you otherwise is either deluded or a liar. Repenting will be a theme in our lives until the end. So on one hand, it is true that Christians continually sin. The problem is not that they sin, but whether there is any evidence of sanctification so that they are not simply falling into every sin they ever had without ceasing. There should be some change in their lives. And it should continue over time. But becoming a Christian was never a promise that sin would just go away. Only that there is now the way to move out of it. But we have to be involved. It is not just grace, or dispensing.
The prayer that Jesus provided as the pattern for the disciples turns from God and the kingdom with "forgive our trespasses." There was never any hint that this part of the prayer would eventually become useless.
Yes, Christians continue to sin. And some of them seem to never get past any of it. But that is not the measure of being a Christian. However, never getting past any of it begs the question of belief. If you can't even try to follow and obey, do you really believe? I didn't say that if you can't succeed today do you really believe. And there is the problem. There is a question mark for me on those who do not even try. But there is a charge for us to spur one another on. So those who have given up on church, although they may have contacts with other Christians, are they sufficiently connected to allow themselves to be spurred on?
Don't make sinless perfection the marker of a Christian. There are no such people. But have a question concerning those who claim to believe but have absolutely no evidence in their living and don't seem to think it is important. You seem to want it to be all or nothing when the only thing you will ever find is progress or nothing. And there is a large spectrum in progress.