[Lisbon]

I am so happy to have read these posts on forgiveness. I'm not sure I still know what to do with it all but just that we would realize we have a problem.

LSM and previously WL had a big problem that it would appear they never realized or if they did they just swept it under the rug because of their philosophy. Shame on them but we still have to be before the Lord not as those who know that much. At best we are all pretty poor.

If your wife is having an affair over a long period of time I think another something steps in. As WL said more than once and I agree, we are all lyers in many occasions. I recently told a lie while walking in a mall and my conscience rose up and I had to deal with it. Many times I'm not that quick to deal. Had our leaders lied to us and then repented, I certainly feel we have no choice but to forgive. But when there is a pattern of lying, it's hard not to think we are in another category. I personally feel by now the leaders have dug such a deep hole that they would have no possible way to get out.

Even at the end of his life, I could not see where Paul was that forgiving of Onesiphorus for deserting him in Rome. He did say he hoped he would find mercy later on. And I don't want to just be giving us some kind of free pass but both John and Paul had some pretty harsh words against those who were havocking the church 2000 years ago.

It is certain we must not be mean which some of us have at times been. My dad used to say we can be fruit inspectors and it looks pretty plain there has been a lot of bad fruit in the house for over forty years and if the truth is ever known the time might be more like 60 years.

I personally have no burden to pray for the LC except for those I love who are still in it. After 50 to 60 years, I don't think sects ever change.

Lisbon