[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

1) Did you read or see the Fermentation of the Present Rebellion that was put out in 1990? Was that book circulated in the GLA?

Yes, I saw that book. It was place on every seat during a conference I gave with another brother in Willoughby, Ohio. I read the first few pages and determined that it was not something I would care to have the saints read. I thought the tone of the remarks was awful. So we boxed them all back up and put them away. I'm not sure whether any of the saints ever saw them or not.

I didn't look at that book again until a few days ago. I had seen it mentioned so much I thought I should read it. My assessment has changed: it is not simply that the tone was awful; its very content was awful. No wonder you saints have been bothered.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

2) Why is it so important that the word "all" not be used when talking about idolatry in the LC? The constant drum beat from a number of posters here is that all were not guilty. I don't believe I have ever said all were, in a blanket or generic fashion. I think I qualified it with some explanation of what I believed idolatry was, but again, why is this such a big deal?

You may indeed have qualified your remarks. However, others have not. The bible is fairly strong about bearing false witness. Asserting and repeating that "all" are guilty when "all" are not guilty is serious, unfair, unrighteous, and wrong.

Not all churches are the same; not all sinners are the same. When I sin, I have the blood of Christ. When I have not sinned, I do not take the accusation. The accuser of the brethren is cast down.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

When I talk about idolatry, I am mostly interested in understanding what it is and how it applies to believers, because at this point, I believe it does apply. I am not interested in trying to rope everyone into some definition in order to condemn them. I currently believe that many of the abuses that took place in the LC are tied to idolatry, but as yet I haven't clearly explained why I think that.

Very good! I shall be interested in the results of your study. However, for the moment I must agree: you have not as yet clearly explained why you think that.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

But back to my question--the way I look at it is that we all (there is that word again) should be ready and willing to examine ourselves regarding the possibility that we could have been involved in "idolatry" and have offended the Lord, or that we could become involved in the future if we don't guard ourselves. Don't we need to take responsibility for this if it is true and have a thorough repentance?

We surely need to take responsibility for any sin we have committed. So far, however, my conscience seems to be clear in this matter. I have no inner sense at all with regard to idolatry, nor have I been convinced from the bible.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

John warned us to keep ourselves from idols. I'm not ready yet to believe he meant only those of wood and stone.

I had considered mentioning that verse in my earlier post. I regret that I did not.

aron also referred to that verse in John. It says simply "keep yourself from idols". There is no hint there at all that in any way implies that idols mean anything more than they mean in every other mention in the bible. Perhaps you may well be able to convince me from the results of your study that idolatry typifies something in our modern lives, but even if you are able to do so, it won't be from that verse in John.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

So this is my basic attitude toward the topic. I think your response shows you have a similar desire to evaluate the truth of this in the light of the Bible. When I hear the upset over the use of "all," it sounds somewhat to me like a group of people being upset when they are told that they may have been exposed to some fatal disease and need treatment. Instead of being thankful for the warning and welcoming an examination and antidote, they resist saying that not all of them were exposed and not all have the disease. Why not just accept the possibility and apply the remedy?

I once was with a group who may have been exposed to hepatitis. The remedy was a hefty shot of gamma globulin that was to be given in proportion to bodyweight! The doctors were very careful NOT to inoculate anyone who hadn't been proven to have been exposed. The cure was difficult and painful; it was not to be taken lightly.

You (and others) keep demanding that I (and others) repent for sins that so far have not been proven. Nor have they even been reasonably ascribed according to our current understanding of the bible.

Do please have the least little bit of faith in the Holy Spirit Who indwells me. I have no doubt that should the time come that I need to repent, He will be well able to convince me of sin and of righteousness and of judgment.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

In our case the remedy is only a few breaths away. “Father, forgive me if I have bowed to someone other than you and disobeyed you. Forgive me for silently assenting to what was done to Bill and John and others. Please shine your light on me and show me if, in anyway, You see me serving other gods.”

Amen, even so, Father. Shine in our hearts. Save us from a hardened conscience. Bring us to be ever obedient to Your will and to Your word. We are not ignorant of the wiles of our enemy. Do keep us clean and pure.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

So, if you can, please tell me what is the reason for the upset about the "all" word? This really puzzles me.

As I wrote above: at least so far, the charge seems to be baseless, and the broad brush unfairly applied.