[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Hi Toledo,

Would you mind quoting the general slur [speaking in an insulting or demeaning way] and insult [rude or insensitive or contemptuous comment] that I made on a wide group of people. Maybe I did this, but I don’t remember doing it.

Dear Jane,

I was replying to your remark that a broad brush is okay. I mentioned it because I thought it sounded much more ungracious than I would expect from you. I did not mean to imply that you had made such a slur. I apologize if I gave that sense; it was not at all my intent. However, I do not agree that it is okay to generally tar a wide group of people, then to simply say, if the shoe doesn't fit...

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Did you go along with the quarantining of John Ingalls and Bill Mallon? I think it is clear now that this was in violation of the Word. The Bible tells us to receive all whom Christ has received. Witness Lee unrighteously labeled them and put them out. His followers were told to do likewise. Maybe you weren’t there then, but that would be one example.

Excellent! Thank you. This is the sort of specific question to which I am able to respond.

I agree that this non-biblical (extra-biblical?) term "quarantine" is utterly contrary to the scripture. Paul advises that there is a way for us to deal with unruly brothers in a locality -- "put away the wicked man from among yourselves". However, I do not at all see how this would apply to any of the brothers who have been falsely "quarantined".

Nor do I see how a group of brothers can demand that all localities refuse to receive certain saints. In trying to do such a thing, they make themselves into a hierarchy and a headquarters. There is no such thing in the New Testament.

However, to be fair ("fair" is still okay, isn't it?), I had no idea that John Ingalls or Bill Mallon or John So or Don Rutledge had been "quarantined". I was told that the first three had rebelled and left, and I knew that Don had moved from Dallas, but that was the extent of my knowledge. In the area where I lived and served, I never heard the matter discussed. As far as I know, none of the churches in the midwest refused to receive the quarantined brothers.

I knew Don Rutledge personally and prayed for him regularly for the past many years. A bit less than a year ago, I got to see him again. He asked me what I thought about his being quarantined. I replied that I had never heard about it (which does not all set aside the possibility that I might have betrayed him if I had had the opportunity...).

I write all this as a reply to the "broad brush" that has been applied in this thread. Not all localities were the same, nor did all regions practice the same sort of controls.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I think Matt used the term idolatry because it was a biblical term whose meaning contains the idea behind “Leeholism.”

Part of the problem we are having on this thread is understanding what idolatry is and if it has any application to believers. Do you think the Bible teaches that it is only applicable to literal idol worshippers, meaning heathen that bowed down to wood or stone or molten idols?

Yes, pretty much. I recall reading the comment many years ago that Catholics worship idols of stone while Protestants worship idols of doctrine. I think that may be helpful. However, this thread has repeatedly insisted that anyone who ever was in the local churches bought into idolatry (present company excepted, of course...).

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I find that many misunderstandings and stalemated arguments occur because of failure to have a common understanding of terms being used. What explanation or definition do you find in the Bible? If you could give me verses I would appreciate that.

Sorry, though I mentioned the remark about Catholics and Protestants above, I confess that I cannot find any reference in the bible about idols, except those which refer to graven images of metal or stone. Aaron's golden calf comes to mind...

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Have you ever really studied this topic before? I just started seriously looking at it this year.

No, not really. I've never considered it to be much of an issue except for Catholics and the idol worshipers I met in the Far East.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Idolatry is everywhere in the Old Testament, especially among God’s people. I think we are foolish if we don’t consider seriously the possibility that it has application to us today. I don’t believe that idolatry just went away and as believers we don’t need to be warned by its dangers.

You make an interesting point -- one that I do not care to dismiss lightly. However, types and shadows are something of the Old Testament; the New Testament provided the anti-types and clear language. If it were intended that idolatry represent something more than the worship of stones, I would expect that the Lord Jesus, or Paul, or Peter, or James, or someone would have mentioned it.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Since we can fall into the same example of unbelief as the children of Israel, it seems prudent that we should study and understand their failures. When I try to do that, I find idolatry everywhere. This tells me I need to seek to understand how idolatry applies to us as believers. Paul seemed to think it applied.

Perhaps, though Paul could be remarkably clear on most things, yet he did not seem to bother claiming idolatry to be anything more than what was presented in the Old Testament. Consider his points in I Corinthians about meat offered to idols. He wasn't talking about anything more than pagan animal sacrifices.

Your argument for making idolatry something more than the worship of stones would carry more weight, perhaps, if idol worship did not continue to be a pervasive fact of life even in this age. Europe and Asia and Africa are full of stone idols that continue to be worshiped until this very day. North and South American as well are filled with Catholic idols. The worship of stones has not passed away, and we would do well to be aware of it.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I have been surprised to discover how much God equates idolatry with unfaithfulness to Him and with fornication and even whoredoms, both in the Old and the New Testaments. When the children of Israel fell into idolatry he often called their actions harlotry. He was very jealous over them. Paul tells us God is also jealous over us. Studying idolatry has helped me understand that He wants to relate to each of us directly as a husband and doesn’t want anyone or anything to come between us and Him. The second commandment says, “For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God ...” Understanding the perils of idolatry, and realizing that I unknowingly fell into it, has helped me want to walk in the light of His intense love and jealously and zealously guard my relationship with Him.

Again, you make some interesting points -- well worth pondering. However, it is still a long way away from proving the charge that everyone (or even most) in the local churches were and are still guilty of idolatry. I, for one, never worshiped a stone. Nor did I worship Witness Lee.

I am only just now finding out some of the more sordid things about the LSM. I cannot blame anyone for finding fault with such a sinful situation as apparently existed (and for all I know may still exist). While I regret to learn of such weaknesses, moral errors, and sins on the part of WL and his closest followers, that cannot take away from the help I received in the bible from this earthen vessel. I learn only too late that WL was not practicing the things which he taught.

All this leaves me to wonder which portions ought to be preserved and which portions ought to be abandoned. After much consideration, I am still left with the question of baby and bathwater.